False Flag Attacks: Myth and Reality

One of the terms most commonly used by conspiracy theorists when discussing “the real story” behind incidents like the September 11th attacks or the recent Sandy Hook shooting is “false flag,” meaning that it was caused or staged deliberately to use as an excuse to perpetrate something nefarious. A quick Google search of the phrase brings up an astonishing 42 million hits, with page after page of posts at conspiracy hotbeds like Infowars/Prison Planet, Natural News, Before It’s News, etc. If one were to work solely from this, it would be easy to get the impression that our recent history is jammed with prefabricated incidents designed to enable our government to grab more power, take away the rights of the common people and/or line their already fattened pockets.

Further complicating matters, false flags are a very real phenomenon. Unlike, say, free energy machines or alien abductions, which people claim to exist, yet don’t, false flag attacks have happened, many times for many different reasons. The United States has even been involved in some. In order to debunk the conspiracy theories, it’s important to define what a false flag actually is, and have historical examples of when they’ve actually happened, in order to better define when they haven’t.

In military terms, a false flag is any act of deception designed to make your opponent think you’re someone else. The term “false flag” originated with naval warfare, when a ship would run up a flag other than its designated battle ensign for the purposes of drawing an enemy ship closer. When the target got close enough, the deceiving ship would run up the real battle flag and open fire. This tactic has long been recognized as an acceptable use of deception, and has been used in numerous forms, by both naval and ground forces, for centuries. Both World Wars feature numerous uses of false flag strategies, from ships disguising themselves as other ships to soldiers wearing enemy uniforms.

False flags also have political uses, usually to justify aggression. Japan kicked off its 1931 invasion of Manchuria with a false flag, a staged bombing of a railway known as the Mukden Incident. The “bombing” of the Japanese-owned South Manchuria Railway was so ineffective that a train went over the railroad minutes after the explosion, but it was all the justification Japan needed to begin its long-planned conquest of China.

The German invasion of Poland was also preceded by a series of false flags, known collectively as Operation Himmler, and designed to manufacture the appearance of Polish belligerence toward Germany. Over the course of August 31, 1939, the night before the planned German invasion, nearly two dozen incidents took place involving German troops dressed in Polish uniforms carrying out random acts of vandalism, destruction and terror against towns and installations along the Germany/Poland border. To emphasize the ruse, dead bodies in Polish uniforms (usually concentration camp prisoners) were left behind. Operation Himmler was a paper-thin propaganda ruse, but it did its job, giving Germany the pretense it needed to do what it was going to do anyway.

False flags have also been a staple of terrorism and state-sponsored actions, especially during the Cold War. But for every real false flag involving deliberate deception, there are just as many historical incidents called false flags where the evidence could go either way. The Reichstag Fire, set in 1933 and used by the Nazis to justify their seizure of power, may have been the work of a Dutch Communist, whose conviction was posthumously overturned by a German court in 2008, or might have been set by the Nazis themselves. The Russian apartment bombings of 1999 are often called a false flag staged by Russian intelligence as an excuse to invade Chechnya, despite conflicting evidence. And the explosion and sinking of the USS Maine in 1898 is long thought to have been caused by US agents planting a mine on the ship as a pretense for war with Spain, though recent evidence points to Maine being sunk by an internal coal explosion. In these cases, we don’t know enough, and likely never will, to say whether the incidents happened organically or were set up for nefarious purposes.

One false flag operation that’s long fired the imagination of conspiracy theorists never even took place. Operation Northwoods was a proposed plot by the Department of Defense to fabricate a pretext for an invasion of Cuba and overthrow of the Castro regime. Acts such as shooting down a passenger plane, sinking a US Navy ship or even attacks on Miami were suggested by the document, which was classified until 1997. The plan made it all the way to President Kennedy’s desk, who wisely vetoed it. But just the existence of such a plan is enough to convince some that the US government, no matter who is in charge, is capable of brazen deception and false flag techniques to justify anything it wants. And of course, the conspiracy theorists add, President Kennedy was assassinated less than a year after scuttling Northwoods.

Finally, we come to events that involved no deliberate deception, and therefore aren’t false flag attacks, but simply attacks. Everything from Pearl Harbor to the Liberty Incident have been called government-staged false flags, with virtually nothing to back up the accusations. The one most often cited as a false flag is 1964’s Gulf of Tonkin Incident, where a US destroyer was the victim of two attacks by North Vietnamese torpedo boats, one real and the other probably only jittery sailors firing at shadows. Despite there being ample evidence that the first attack happened, and no evidence that the second involved any deliberate deception on the part of the US, conspiracy theorists seized on the subsequent passing of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution as proof that the incident was staged to justify sweeping war powers for President Johnson and an escalation of hostilities in Vietnam. But even as early as a few days after the second incident, Johnson already doubted whether it had taken place, which is not the action of someone cooking up a fake attack to justify his policies.

Of course, the September 11th attacks are considered the granddaddy of all false flags, with a legion of truthers accusing the government of bombing the World Trade Center as an excuse to curtail our rights, give more power to the global elite and kick off any number of wars. But after the truther theories are debunked, we’re left with one inescapable fact: unless and until definitive proof of the government’s involvement in 9/11 ever surfaces, the attacks can’t be called a false flag.

Which brings us to Sandy Hook. In the past few years, every time one of these tragedies takes place, be it in Arizona, Aurora, Milwaukee or now Newtown, conspiracy theorists instantly take to the internet, with cries of “false flag!” and accusations that the Obama administration either caused or staged the shootings as an excuse to grab our guns and curtail our rights. They offer manufactured “proof” and use the historical examples of other false flag attacks, both real and imagined, as “evidence” that “they” did it before, and will do it again.

And just like 9/11, and the other imagined false flags, these theories hold about as much water as a colander. Some directly contradict each other. Most can easily be explained away. All of them are made up. There’s no confusion about who committed these crimes and how they did it. And the supposed measures that the shootings were an excuse to enact, be they wide-ranging gun bans, repeal of the 2nd Amendment or mass arrests of gun owners, have come to little. Even the much ballyhooed executive orders signed by the President in the wake of Sandy Hook were mostly cosmetic measures, dismissed by many as window dressing.

To put it bluntly, if Sandy Hook actually was a false flag, perpetrated in secret by the government, it was easily discovered and poorly followed-up. Which leaves only the sad reality of 26 victims who died not at the hands of the New World Order, but of a psychotic killer.

Yes, false flag incidents are real. Real people have died because of them. But to see them lurking around every corner at every tragedy is paranoia at its worst.

About Mike Rothschild

Mike Rothschild is a writer and editor based in Pasadena. He writes about scams, conspiracy theories, hoaxes and pop culture fads. He's also a playwright and screenwriter. Follow him on Twitter at twitter.com/rothschildmd.
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165 Responses to False Flag Attacks: Myth and Reality

  1. Anonymous says:

    Good piece, however the author’s last name is Rothschild, so I dont think it will do much to cure the pigheaded paranoia that’s out there..

    Those guys just want to feel like vigilantes and look for stuff that agrees with them. In the process they are making an artform of propaganda and disinformation campaigns and can be easily manipulated by any ill-intended, say, gun-selling industrialist for their own purposes.

    Also I think they cannot handle reality is absurd at times, but not as exciting as video games.


      Sooooo, All the DHS trucks, Ammo, UN Trucks, Gun Confiscation, Military Cuts, Sequester, Food Stamp & Homeless Climbs, 89 Million out of work, the booming market right now, Gas Prices soaring, Iran, North Korea, Russia Threats, Drone Attacks on American Soil (If THEY feel it necessary), The rising of American Militia, Venezuela, Muslim Uprising, Homegrown Muslim Terrorists (to name a few) are all of us just being a bit crazy? It all comes down to one thing, you look at the world in your own eyes. You watch the news, listen and dont listen to what attracts you.EVERYTHING and yes EVERYTHING I have just stated is FACT and going on right now. These are OPINION columns which you have taken for FACT because once again, IT FITS YOUR NEEDS just as you accuse the latter. You leftists (Once again, I am am sure that is a FACT) will be the FIRST in the FEMA camps and thank goodness the FIRST to die. Ohhhhh, I know, they dont exist.

      • Will you be my friend?

      • WhatMeWorry says:

        The lure of conspiracies is that it makes the believer special, in his own eyes and the eyes of many. He knows the secret, he has the inside scoop. It’s a matter of having inside information nobody else has, unless they are wise enough to be in on the matter. You sir, are special indeed.

        • Matt R says:

          The lure of labeling people as Conspiracy Theorist / Tinfoil Hats is that it makes the believer feel special, In his own eyes, he is morally and mentally superior to these people. He takes comfort in a full trust relationship he has with the establishment because he is to intellectually lazy to any look deeper into matters than listening to the news.

          I’d like to think I remain in the middle. I think most people should.

        • Kelly says:

          Interesting that you used a book about president Johnson claiming the first attack may not have happened at all to confirm that the attack was real and neglected to include the foil releases pertaining to the second attack never happening at all.

          Combining the mention of project Northwoods having never taken place at all (because decent humans don’t think of things like that let alone have the entire hierarchy believe in it so much they presented it as a viable plan with president Kennedy being the solo voice of reason in a room full of powerful people in charge) with the nonexistent occurrence of an incident in the gulf of Tonkin can we surmise that the perpetuation of facts not in evidence are opportunities fabricated (false) by government officials (flag) to overstimulate and propagate spin media to the electronically trances public (event)?

          • Rozza says:

            The lure of being in the big skeptic club is that it makes the believer special, in his own eyes and the eyes of others in the club. He knows the truth, he has the inside scoop. It’s a matter of having inside information, they are wise enough to be in on the matter. That WTC1’s top section moved into its lower section without decelerating whatsoever need not be known or understood through the lens of the classical laws of physics, simply saying ‘truther’ is sufficent to be a special thinker, a skeptic You sir, are special indeed.

        • Teresa Chernoff says:

          An angle I hadn’t looked at before. Thanks #WhatMeWorry -see it’s an old post, but still interesting in light of the tragic evil that wiped out 49 innocent lives in #Orlando – conspiracy theorists are taking the bait a lot quicker than they used to!

          • ETB says:

            That’s because sometimes the as seen on TV conspiracy theories are wrong by the physics. Ironically the skeptics movement is as incapable of going strictly by the evidence as the most moon landing hoak tinfoiler only in reflection. http://youtu.be/NiHeCjZlkr8

          • Noah Dillon says:

            What evidence is being offered in that silly video?

          • ETB says:

            The evidence in that ‘silly ‘video is basic classical physics predictions applied to a known gravity driven collapse, a verinage demolition. Unsurprisingly the predations made about impact deceleration is proven. Newton’s 3rd is also elegantly shown in the crush up/down effect which is initiated at the mid height point in the verinage demolition unsurprisingly resulting in a pile of rubble with one or so top floors left on top. When compared to WTC1 none of the motions of a gravity driven collapse as predicted by the classical laws if physics are apparent, there is a complete lack if impact deceleration. Unsurprisingly the nature of the collapse, initiated well above the buildings mid height point is also entirely inconsistent with a gravity driven collapse as per Newton’s 3rd. WTC1 having failed in a gravity driven collapse is the heart of the as seen in TV conspiracy theory, it simply didn’t happen because simple physics says so. Huge amounts of energy above WTC1 top section’s potential kinetic energy was required to make WTC1 disintegrate, & disintegrate it did because that’s what the physics says. If you don’t get this go back to Junior high & stop calling what you don’t understand ‘silly’.

      • CE says:

        Epic strawman is epic. Stop giving us right wingers a bad name please. I grant that there might be some merit your laundry list here, but none of that entails that Sandy Hook, 9/11 or Boston were false flags.

      • Phil says:

        You see the part where you’re using title case to write but you aren’t writing a title?

        Much as your brain f***s that up, it f***s up other things.

        Your ability to learn the answers to your questions relies on your ability to correct these f*****s. If you don’t ever notice your logic is bad, you won’t be able to check yourself… So it’s a bit of a trap for the dudes who sincerely can’t figure out apostrophe use to get out of these bad thinking habits.

        Meanwhile the other bit is that nobody who knows the actuality of employment, gas prices, things that never happened which you mention as certainties is going to take you seriously. Like, you realize it takes two seconds to disprove what you said using records of gas pricing, right?

        No? You don’t?

      • Dinktinfoilpunkfairymermaid says:

        Plenty of leftists believe this stuff too u know. Division is playing into their game dude u know it

      • Troy says:

        Claims these guys use facts to fit their narrative, doesn’t use any facts to support his argument. lol I think your name may need to be changed.

      • Vic M says:

        If Snopes would have been around in the 50’s, they would have “debunked” the idea that cigarettes are bad for you.

        • Noah Dillon says:

          ??? What could that speculation possibly be based on?

        • Alexandria Nick says:

          …why? The negative effects of cigarette smoking had been well known for decades and decades. The amount of *caring* about those negative effects by users increased around that time.

    • Ned Wood says:

      I love your work but I have to agree that the Rothschild family name is a bit of a contradiction in values.

  2. Shirley Rieven says:

    Rah! Rah! Well said!

  3. Mesocosm says:

    I think you’re quite right to question the speed with which citizen activists will raise the cry of “False flag!” with respect to everything from the 9/11 attacks to “Fast and Furious.”

    However, in my opinion you may be minimizing the degree to which false flag attacks are in fact used by the US, both at home and abroad. Many of the substantiated false flag examples you presented are instances from foreign powers, but the US government has an extremely ignominious track record of these operations that has been well established. Many of the awful examples of which we have public evidence involve the Cold War, but that surely has more to do with the fact that material from that era has come to light.

    Two particularly noteworthy examples that bear consideration in this discussion are the FBI’s COINTELPRO operation, which infiltrated a number of nonviolent protest and civil rights groups in the sixties and seventies, and sewed discord and even violence through false flag operations and disinformation. It’s worth noting that in at least one case, that of Fred Hampton and Mark Clark, there is overwhelming evidence of blatant political assassinations on US soil.

    Here is the official Church Committee report on the FBI attempts to destroy the Black Panthers:

    Another case worth reviewing is that of Operation Gladio, a clandestine CIA operation in Europe throughout the Cold War. Operation Gladio began as an OSS operation to leave caches of arms in the event of a Soviet invasion of Western Europe post World War II, but it morphed into a shadowy ultra-right-wing anti-Communist network that has been credibly linked to several acts of terrorism, such as high-profile assassinations of paramilitary troops in Italy carried out by right-wing neo-fascists in order to blame and discredit Communists. See, for example, this article, which contains testimony of an Italian head of counter-intelligence alleging direct CIA involvement in assassinations:

    I do not mean to imply that Sandy Hook or 9/11 were false flag operations – far from it. I simply want to emphasize the degree to which they are a real and demonstrable part of the US playbook.

    • This is great stuff, thanks for the info. I started writing more about Gladio, but realized it was way too much to squeeze into one paragraph, and it was taking me off the path I wanted to stay on. I have no doubt the US has been involved in its share of underhanded business involving deception, but not the incidents that are popularly thought of as “staged” by conspiracy theorists.

      • Jay504702 says:

        Just a few quick questions.. Because i am just going down the comments.. But, at the times of these “now known” False flag operations.. Would it be safe to assume there were individuals like yourself, who pointed out those operations were not false flag ops.. just because they may or may not have happen before? and until years later, it becomes fact…

        I am perplexed by your well composed article. Just another know it all who wants to label anyone who wants to question their government? It isn’t as if they have cause? It is simple to just accept whatever story the government gives for each case. Regardless of some inconsistencies that are not important.. But the facts remain the same. They can, have and will do them again. Despite what you or I believe. What say you to those realities? Instead of using your voice to condemn those who do not trust their government?

        • Rob Struble says:

          ” Would it be safe to assume there were individuals like yourself, who pointed out those operations were not false flag ops.. ”

          Logical fallacy. Because something existed or happened in the past is not proof it exists or happens now.

          “I am perplexed by your well composed article. Just another know it all who wants to label anyone who wants to question their government?”

          Ad hominum prefaced by a compliment.

          “It isn’t as if they have cause? It is simple to just accept whatever story the government gives for each case. Regardless of some inconsistencies that are not important.”

          Begging the question.

          “But the facts remain the same. They can, have and will do them again. Despite what you or I believe. What say you to those realities? Instead of using your voice to condemn those who do not trust their government?”

          Fallacy followed by ad hominum.

          • argumenttologic says:

            Your entire comment: Argument from Fallacy Fallacy. Just because the argument contains a fallacy doesn’t make the conclusion incorrect.
            You are stupid; ad hominem (correctly spelled) but it’s still true.

          • Matt R says:

            Oh look it’s another ‘skeptic’ with his logic handbook trying to deconstruct a point because he doesn’t like it. How to appear intelligent 101.

      • Matt R says:

        “it was taking me off the path I wanted to stay on.”

        You mean actual examples of the things your article said didn’t exist would derail the point of your argument.

        Maybe stick to writing plays.

      • Paolo Martini says:

        Hey, looking for ‘underhanded business’ in which the US was involved overseas? Check out the false genocide in Timisoara, which led to Ceausescu’s ‘trial’ and execution (along with his wife), in which the ‘bodies’ of the victims were cadavers dug up from a potter’s field. But one swallow doesn’t mean spring is here, as we say in Italy. Gladio was involved in several terror bombings here (culprits never found) carried out by the ultra-right, and the ‘Red Brigades’ were thoroughly infiltrated. It’s possible the US engineered (directly or indirectly) Aldo Moro’s kidnapping and assassination, which was blamed on the RB. Same goes for Bader-Meinhof. This was all justified in the name of ‘security’, to prevent a democratically elected Communist Party majority from coming to power in Italy, a strategic air force and naval base location smack in the middle of the Mediterranean. But that doesn’t mean every mass shooting in the US is engineered by the gummint. What’s interesting is how when doom and destruction predictions don’t pan out (see Jade Helm and project Haarp), conspiracy theorists just turn the page and move on to the next hoax. Btw: the WTC may not have been a false flag, but the official 9/11 story is manifestly unsatisfactory. I have no idea who did it, or why, but whitewashing the events only provides fuel for conspiracy theories.

  4. Mesocosm says:

    Ack! Sorry that comment wasn’t edited a bit better!

  5. gregm91436 says:

    Many kudos to Mescocosm for a well-reasoned and historically accurate reply.

  6. Wordwizard says:

    One comment, one question:

    “In military terms, a false flag is any act of deception designed to make your opponent think you’re someone else.”

    In a number of your examples, where “incidents” were staged to justify wars, the deception was designed to make their OWN country, rather than their opponents, think it was done by someone else.

    I have one niggling question, which I could not find addressed by the link you provided to Popular Mechanics’ debunking of 9/11 conspiracy theorists:

    Claim: The Twin Towers’ collapses, each of which was caught on film live, showed each of them falling at free-fall speed, which is impossible when a building “pancakes” (as it takes time for each floor to collapse from the weight of the ones above), but only possible when controlled demolition causes collapse from the ground floor up.

    I have never found ANY of the conspiracy theorists’ “explanations” of this phenomenon the least bit convincing, but it still raises the unanswered question of how that could be so. Could someone help set me straight?

    • …and two planes taking down three buildings! 9/11 has been proved scientifically on many platforms that it is an inside job! I watched live on TV: a woman face covered with dust running away, said to the reporter ” I heard explosions coming from the basement…”

      We have a lot of documented incidents of US forces from Incirlik/Adana AFB, dropping ammunition and supplies to PKK rebels in northern Iraq, which when brought to the attention of US General Staff by Turkish General Staff, they kept a low profile!

      One of the many CIA trained young Americans disguised as “Peace Corps” teaching English in Anatolian schools, were caught on phone-cam putting his hand on the photo of Ataturk on the wall and saying: “What does this man mean to you? What good has he done to you?” trying to wipe out Ataturks’ image from the young generation!

      If the writer and any reader of this article has enough unbiased will, please read The Protocols: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm .

    • Brian B says:

      Quite simply, they didn’t collapse at free-fall speed. It’s a popular misconception. The latter part of the collapses happened at free-fall speed, but that is easily explained by the fact that lower floors were demolished by air pressure after the collapses started. However, the entirety of the collapses did NOT occur at free-fall speed. They began more slowly and accelerated to free-fall speed as the lower floors were weakened.

      • What about “…explosions coming from the basement”? Weeks before the incident, some people worked for many days in the below ground level, and the activity was explained to other witnesses as “…fire drill”. And of course the hasty removal of debris by the order of Gulliany not leaving any physical clues behind! Wake up America :))

        • paul w says:

          You cannot help yourself, can you?
          Your question was answered, so you ignored it and went onto another ‘just asking questions’.
          Truther 101.

          • More truther 202
            Here is an excerpt from one of my writings:

            “…There are various documents proving that the Jewish business men during WWII took part with Nazis to scare the Jews out of Europe to settle in will be Israel country! So Illuminati and hereditary elite is a minor point.

            They have done a lot of harm dismantling former Yugoslavia into 6 “independent” colonies, also they are doing the same in ME, and trying to do the same to Turkey.

            There are well documented incidents of US forces dropping arms and supplies to Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq, and US generals insisted on keeping a low profile on the subject when Turkish General Staff brought the incident to their attention.”

            Why does US have more than 180 military bases all around the world? Home land security? Or feed the US arms industry more $$$$?

            Care to read The Protocols: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm ???

            And later we may laugh together on more conspiracy theories :))))))))))

        • They did their best to cover up, Kemal, but traces of super-thermite has indeed been found in the debris. And, that IS an irrefutable proof of your train of thoughts being correct. Apart from that, the subsequent collapse of tower 7. leaves no question in this respect (It also puts Brian B’s opinion and his opinion on this in a most suspicious light! :-))

          • Mark says:

            There was never any thermite found in any of the legitimate samples tested by reputable laboratories. The claims of thermite never passed peer review. Those samples came from erroneous sources many years later, and the author of the thermite conspiracy refused to have his “samples” independently tested and verified. Nevermind that it takes tons of thermite to even cut one ton of aluminum in the form of a shaped charge that no one saw installed. How was all this unburned highly reactive thermite left over. Looking at the spectrum analysis of the alleged “red chips”, it appears to be primer paint, and not explosives.

          • End Time Boogie says:

            “There was never any thermite found in any of the legitimate samples tested by reputable laboratories. “, cite your sources, I am genuinly interested as to my understanding NIST never entertained the possibilty of any pyrotechnic agents being involved, so they never did the forensics.

        • Rob Struble says:

          Anyone who cites “Operation Northwoods” as evidence of anything other than the government *not* being willing to engage in such actions is lying to themselves. A plan which was rejected is not evidence of anything other than THE PLAN WAS REJECTED.

          • Paolo Martini says:

            Dude, it made it to Kennedy’s desk and he vetoed it. ‘The government’ came down to one man in that case. If he’d approved it, it would have been EXECUTED by government agents. Maybe Bush didn’t veto a similar suggestion from ‘the government’ (Rumsfeld, Rove, Wolfowitz, Cheney & Co.).

        • Rob Struble says:

          You ignoring tons of wreckage not to mention the obvious “wing scars on the facade” makes me more than a little suspicious of the rest of your claims.

      • Doug Wagner says:

        If you believe the official story, that tells me everything I need to know about your intellect, and/or, your agenda

    • Ned Wood says:

      Nope! I have to agree. But there’s more. I can’t get my head around the fact that the Nine Eleven Warning was known in 13 countries 3 – 6 months in advance. Dick Cheyney used warning to instigate various terrorist exercises specifically to allow 9/11 to happen. Cheyney murdered 3,000 people in order to get a trifecta for going to war in Iraq control demolition 9/11 government complicity. UA provided the passports and pretext for operation.

  7. Sean says:

    If you think that because one guy at Popular Mechanics whose neither a demolitions expert, nor an architect is proof that something is debunked, then you have more problems than just a lack of ability to connect the dots. On the other side you have organizations like Architects and Engineers for Truth who actually are experts in their respective fields that say unequivocally that planes did not bring down those buildings, moreover they say it by the thousands. And if that still isn’t enough for you then explain building number 7 that wasn’t hit by a plane and came down in it’s own footprint at free fall speed. And in addition was reported to have fallen before it ever fell. Explain that way.

    It’s truly shocking to me to hear people like you who actually think they’re smart when they can’t even see something that is right in front of their face.

    • Leigh says:

      Pot/kettle much? Here’s the problem I see with conspiracy theorists. You don’t actually look at the evidence or research your questions. You look for answers that support your pre-existing conclusion. A demolition expert or an architect is not metallurgist nor a physicist. There is abundant rebuttals to be found for your arguments, up to and including an actual explanation for the BBC (and other news agencies) having reported things incorrectly (in the confusion at some point it was claimed that as many as 8 planes may had been hijacked, for example). ,

    • Wordwizard says:

      The Popular Mechanics link (not done by “one guy”) leads to the explanation for building 7, which is why I didn’t ask about it.

    • paul w says:

      More Truther 101.
      Architects and Engineers? A laughing stock to all professional architects and engineers.
      Also, if you use their numbers (“in the thousands”) as proof of authority, what about the MILLIONS of experts who think they are completely deluded?
      Also, there are not ‘thousands’, but 1,700. Do the math.
      Also, one debunker enrolled his dog as an engineer. I still think it’s on the list.
      Also, the experts on the reports say the planes DID bring the towers down, and explain why.
      Wtc7? Read the report. Massive damage from the collapse of the towers (you lot always fail to remember that…wonder why?), massive, unchecked fires (which you lot call ‘insignificant fires’), and an inspection by firefighters who saw the building was leaning alarmingly, and inside, could hear the thing actually groaning. They got out quickly, and cleared the area.
      Nor did it fall at free-fall speed.
      The truth? You lot cannot handle the truth.

      • Rozza says:

        & that explains why it accelerates to free-fall after the ‘penthouse’ area initiates the collapse and yet another WTC building collapsed into it’s own foot print symmetrical. Oh & NIST cannot release its physics engine so under that level of scrutiny I saw CGI evidence that New York was swamped by a giant tsunami.

        • Ned Wood says:

          So much to explain to those who can’t get their heads around the fact that their own governments cannot be trusted. There are people who have the power to make small minds think their way. In exercising their plots they give themselves up with their ill thought out plans that have so many holes in them that a child can see through them. These False Flags, PSYOPs and Hoaxes are so easy to uncover that one wonders if these, so called, WO people think that the rest of us are just so dumb. By the posts I have read I think they should give up because we’re all on to them.

      • Casey says:

        Paul, your comment is completely ridiculous. Read the report in bldg 7?! I bet you believe in Santa Claus too. Have you done any actual research? I know your comment is over 3 years old, so hopefully you’ve learned something in the past few years.

    • Stephen Propatier says:

      Anomaly hunting does not support your conclusion. It takes hundreds of people to do a controlled demolition, and thousands to suppress the evidence left behind at the scene of the crime. Plus all evidence had to be removed from ground zero as it was excavated years later. Despite an opposing party in office that would live to expose the bush administration. 10 years later no reproducible evidence just anomaly’s. Major news networks that hate the bush administration foreign governments that would love to expose the US and somehow no direct evidence. Not one witness has come forward. Really really lucky they all died in all the explosions., So “they” whomever they are have silenced everyone involved. Yet somehow you haven’t had a black bag put over your head and taken away in the night despite the vast conspiracy. Interesting… and just very very implausible. In this group extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    • Freke1 says:

      I’m not sure Mike knows that 9/11 testimonies that didn’t agree with the official story was left out of the final report. Like the story about explosions in the basement. I don’t think Mike has seen Judy Wood’s videos on Youtube. If he had he wouldn’t close this case in his mind with the Popular Mechanics link. There is also the Cheney timeline (also on Youtube) that’s weird. I donno what happend, but at least he should investigate these weird anomalies especially when he knows that the military has no problem with false flag operations (Northwoods).

      Yeah kinda shocking or Oh noes wtf. If You want to investigate 9/11 You should also click on links that You don’t agree with. Check it out Mike, I would love to hear what You think.

      • The existence of Operation Northwoods proves only that the US military has planned false flag operations. It doesn’t prove that any of what I wrote about actually WAS a false flag, including 9/11.

        And I’ve read plenty of questioning of “the official story” of 9/11. I haven’t found any of it to be convincing in the least.

        • Freke1 says:

          ok fair enough – personally I don’t know how 2 planes can cause explosions in the basement, but who knows? I don’t however think these people are lying, crazy or part of a conspiracy:
          (just one of many videos one can find if one bothers with 9/11 – I don’t)

          • Stephen Propatier says:

            That is a logical fallacy called argument from ignorance( I am not calling you ignorant). Because you cannot explain how something happens does not mean in reality that it did not happen. “personally I don’t know how 2 planes can cause explosions in the basement, but who knows?” Arguments that appeal to ignorance rely merely on the fact that the veracity of the proposition is not disproven to arrive at a definite conclusion. These arguments fail to appreciate that the limits of one’s understanding or certainty do not change what is true.

            Anomaly’s are not logical proof of anything. With my erector set knowledge of engineering. Open a empty milk carton, put it upside down in the dust on the ground. Step on it and watch the dust fly. I think that is at least one plausible explanation for how the basement exploded out when the building fell. Elevator shafts run top to bottom in the center of the WTC. I mean how do you get around that all the air trapped in the world trade center forced out everywhere I mean. I’m just askin questions?

          • Ned Wood says:

            Funny how a lot of links we are directed to these days come up with a sad face and the words “Sorry Link Not Available”. 🙂

        • Rob Struble says:

          Actually it proves that a two page “white paper” was shot down by the admin before it ever left the building. OPERATION NORTHWOODS was about as real as a Hollywood screenplay which never got into development.

        • Cat OSullivan says:

          You have to be joking? Nothing ? Even the Chairman of the Commission that said it was set up to fail?
          Lets see we have Mj General Stubblebine who ran intelligence for Nato in Europe throughout 80/90s who can say it was a inside job. Dr Steve pieczenik who has worked on the inside of 5 administrations from Nixon out who says the same. The following Navy and airforce personel saying it is an inside job:
          Col. George Nelson
          U.S. Air Force (ret)
          Commander of Aircraft Maintenance and Logistics
          Aircraft Accident Investigator
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Commander Ted Muga
          U.S. Navy (ret)
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Commander Ralph Kolstad
          U.S. Navy (ret)
          Fighter Pilot
          Former Air Combat Instructor
          U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Lt. Col. Bob Bowman, PhD
          U.S. Air Force (ret)
          Former Director of Advanced
          Space Programs Development
          Former Assistant Dean and Head of
          Aeronautical Engineering Department,
          U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford
          U.S. Marine Corps (ret)
          Fighter Pilot
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS
          U.S. Air Force (ret)
          Command Fighter Pilot
          Former Air Combat Instructor
          U.S. Air Force Weapons School
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Lt. Col. Paul F. Getty, DDS
          U.S. Army (ret)
          Dental Corps
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Maj. Douglas Rokke, PhD
          U.S. Army (ret)
          Former Director
          U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Maj. Charles E. Dills, PhD
          U.S. Air Force Reserves (ret)
          WW II Fighter Pilot
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler
          U.S. Army
          Former Intelligence Officer
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Capt. Joel M. Skousen
          U.S. Marine Corps
          Former Fighter Pilot
          Signed April 17, 2010

          Capt. Eric H. May
          U.S. Army (ret)
          Intelligence Officer
          Former Inspector and Interpreter
          Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty Team
          Signed April 17, 2010

          • Macky says:

            Sorry Cat
            You’re not going to get the US govt Official Story supporters to properly address any pertinent facts re 9-11, only the resorting to diversions and personal attacks, if the last 4 years of 9-11 related posts are any indication.

            After all, the citizens outside America that I’ve spoken to re 9-11 for the last 14+ years know that the Official US govt Story of who the alleged perps were is BS.

            Every piece of information about 9-11 came directly from the US govt, “proven” by the US govt, and “confirmed” by the US govt in a shonky commission that even its Chair and vice-Chair criticized.

            Very few outside the US believe it, except for brainwashed military, and America’s track record at least since WW2 of warfare and interference with countries around the world, the predations on its own citizens, the annual expenditure on the military and armaments (3X that of the second big spender, China), demonstrates a country with less than 1/20 of the world’s population causing the deaths of millions of innocent citizens globally over 60+ years.

            On Skeptoid, the endorsement of the US govt Official Story has so-called skeptics piling in on conspiracy theory bashing, a neat way to avoid said pertinent facts re 9-11 swallowed up in the frenzy of derision and humour towards easily debunked extreme CT’s.

            Even otherwise normally sensible skeptics on Skeptoid have been well and truly sucked into the “feeding-frenzy” including some of its writers, leaving official evidence against the US govt OS of 9-11, and critical analysis ignored.

            There has been no discussion on the FD-302 ‘Police State’ FBI ‘interview’ form which can be changed with impunity by the FBI, with no right of redress by the interviewee.
            It’s been carefully ignored after I pointed out Skeptoid’s Brian Dunning’s own experience and criticism of FD-302, which if anything, should at least promote some skepticism even by the part-time skeptics on Skeptoid.

            But to date, nothing.

          • Noah Dillon says:

            By Jove, there must be almost 12 people on that list! That must be some fraction of a single percentage point of all living current and former US Armed Forces officers. What’s their petition say? It says that the 9/11 Commission was non-optimal and the attacks justified bad policy. My goodness! What damning and incontrovertible proof that 12 people have an opinion about national events. And their accusation at the end: perpetrators have not been brought to justice. Yes. One is indefinitely detained in an offsite prison, 19 of them are dead by their own hand, some likely still walk the Earth free and clear, and a few more have been assassinated, including the brains and financier of the whole thing. Yes. This is certainly evidence. Clever work.

          • Macky says:

            Those said twelve people are only a few of the many that question the US govt story of 9-11 for many different reasons, including myself.

            The rest of the US Armed Forces officers are going to keep their mouths shut, no matter what they believe, if they want to continue their career.

            The 9-11 Commission was a complete farce, 165,000 FD-302 police state forms from the FBI, vetted by the White House (US govt) before publication, information of an alleged plot gained under extreme torture on the detainee, unproven allegations of who the attackers were (because they were never identified scientifically by DNA), or even that they were the attackers in the first place, and a story made up that even sensible “skeptics” believe, “believe” being the operative word, gaping holes in the “investigation” such as WTC 7, and several pages removed detailing the Saudi connection.

            “19 dead by their own hand” is the height of unevidenced belief in the US govt story. There’s no proof outside the US govt.

            You either believe the story or not. But not by critical analysis or by considered skepticism.

            The “brains and financier” of the whole thing was never indicted for 9-11.

            Here is the up to date file that proves it https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

            That’s another unproven US govt story that you either believe or not, that OBL was assassinated and buried at sea. It may be true, but there’s no proof for it. If it is true, the US missed out on a golden opportunity to show the world the body of the alleged No.1 behind the 9-11 attacks.

            What a shambles. And the “skeptics” on Skeptoid suck it up without question. Without evidence and without critical analysis.

          • Noah Dillon says:

            I’ve never yet seen a false flag version of the September 11 attacks, even from you, that convinced me more than the consensus history. I’ve never seen one that didn’t rely on misinformation, misunderstanding, nonsense, non sequiturs, anti-Semitism, or some other hogwash, or one that relied on rational, scientific or legal evidence. And I’ve seen a lot of them.

            Bye, Mackey.

          • ETB says:

            As always all the circumstantial evidence for any conspiracy theory & that includes the as seen on TV conspiracy theories of 9/11 add up to the physics of the physical The laws of physics perfectly predict the motion of a known gravity driven collapse, a verinage demolition. Those laws same predications do not hold true for a WTC1 collapse theory. TV said WTC1 collapsed, physics says it disintegrated. http://youtu.be/NiHeCjZlkr8

          • ETB says:

            As always all the circumstantial evidence for any conspiracy theory & that includes the as seen on TV conspiracy theories of 9/11 don’t add up to or counter the physics of the physical evidence. The laws of physics perfectly predict the motion of a known gravity driven collapse, a verinage demolition. Those laws same predications do not hold true for a WTC1 collapse theory. TV said WTC1 collapsed, physics says it disintegrated. http://youtu.be/NiHeCjZlkr8

    • Rob Struble says:

      So a well researched and documented article is hand waved off but an internet group (Architects and Engineers for Truth) consisting of a handful of people (none f whom have ever built anything over four stories) is accepted whole cloth?

  8. There was a shooting today at Lone Star College in Houston, and already the “false flag!” cries have started. Sigh…

    • Jay504702 says:

      another question before i leave this page for the night.. Soo it isn’t that conspiracies exist right? Because their are many of them that are facts.. So what is your position, knowing they exist? Because if you understand and can admit to that fact, there are conspiracy facts (not theory). What makes you different?

      Also, most people like myself do not claim each shooting is some false flag.. However, the media sensationalism is being used in a way to warrant a gun ban. Just like in Britain and Australia.. Almost exactly like them i might add.. Funny how things work?

      • Conspiracy theories are just that. Theories. Usually supported by misinterpreted, debunked and/or made up evidence. Case in point: the Sandy Hook “hoax.”

        And I don’t believe there’s any support, media or otherwise, for a wide-ranging gun ban. Firearm ownership is simply too ingrained into the American character. But I do think people are just fed up with the shootings. There was another one in Atlanta today. And wouldn’t you know it, there’s already a video on YouTube calling it a false flag.

        • Jay504702 says:

          So as far as you know.. all of the bill of rights are intact? And the gun debate has not been put back on the table from these actions? There are countless gun related deaths year after year. Yet, with this crappy production of sandy hoax.. It is just funny how that works out. That is the over all point. It isnt as if the PAT act is real and can remove your rights as a US citizen..
          Or other bills or related laws after 9/11 have changed the discourse on how individuals can be seen as terrorists.. where proven or unproven.

          Yet your complaint is that they arent supported or they are debunked? I am willing to bet you with enough time.. a person with enough resources could debunk and dispute that you and I were ever born.. Yet countless people who knew you and I would be labeled mental.. Many debunkers have been double debunked or whatever..

          You will have to pardon me sir.. There is too much going on.. from that fast and furious crap to those actors and crap media for the Sandy hoax just to start.. By the way.. there is nothing wrong with theories.. Even if unproven.. Einstein, Darwin, and newton had a few.. But maybe they were nuts too? lol

      • Rob Struble says:

        “However, the media sensationalism is being used in a way to warrant a gun ban. Just like in Britain and Australia.. Almost exactly like them i might add.. Funny how things work?”

        Since a public outcry and calls for banning weapons would be the logical response to a mass murder, you find the logical results “suspicious?” Or are you just asking questions?

  9. Rubygirl says:

    Thank you Mike. I depend on people like you to give me ammunition to use when I have “intelligent discourse” with conspiracy theorists.

  10. Christopher says:

    Truthers love arbitrary and unnecessary details. A three plane attack was just enough to put the fear of government into us, and to force two wars and the Patriot Act on us.

  11. Anonymous says:

    Is there a big difference when you want to rob a house to wait patiently for the owners to go on vacation or to send them free vacation tickets from a false sweepstakes because you’re tired of waiting? I know there’s a semantic difference but….

  12. Mike NZ says:

    “Of course, the September 11th attacks are considered the granddaddy of all false flags, with a legion of truthers accusing the government of bombing the World Trade Center as an excuse to curtail our rights, give more power to the global elite and kick off any number of wars”…

    Huh? Isn’t that EXACTLY what has occurred in the intervening 10+ years? So, while the facts of recent history agreeing with the predictions of the ‘truthers’, I agree it is not PROOF or evidence of any kind, sure, BUT – it sure looks like this viewpoint is a plausible explanation.

    • Stephen Propatier says:

      You hardly need the 9/11 attacks to start a war. The united states struggles to go 10 years without a war. The world is in constant conflict. It is not a ground breaking conclusion amazing prediction by truthers. The accepted story is still less complicated and more plausible than any wast conspiracy, by far. It is very implausible to believe that the “power elite wanted a war in Afghanistan. I mean if you want to take over Iraq and you have this vast complicated plan, just blame Saddam in the first place. Trump up evidence and attack Iraq. Why even bother with bin-laden and Afghanistan which is a stone age penniless, heroin factory? Again great big piles of implausible hidden, complicated and contradictory conspiracy. Please. Some intelligent well funded Islamic extremists got a little lucky, and had a good plan. Did the power elite take advantage of the situation? Yes. Why would this war be any different from the last 20? Answer: it isn’t..

      • Another question: why no airplane parts found in Pentagon incident??????

        • Stephen Propatier says:

          Really and when you in the pentagon, because carlton burkhammer eyewitness fireman reported finding a cockpit seat with floor attached inside the building. 8 documented witnesses report different aircraft parts at different parts of the building through the impact hole.

          • Freke1 says:

            which was 16 feet. Does the official report say anything about what caused the explosions in the basement?

          • Stephen Propatier says:

            Again, anomaly hunting is not proof of anything. But at least get the anomaly correct. The 8 eyewitnesses found airplane debris at the c ring two rings inside external ring.
            You have not answered my questions where are the witnesses? the people who planted the explosives? The hundreds that would be needed to hide the evidence? Where is the piece of un-detonated primer cord?
            Explain this: I’m just asking questions?
            If 4500 degree nanothermites were used to pulverize almost every inch of every concrete floor, then how could there have been millions of sheets of paper with an ignition temperature of only 451° raining down on the sidewalks?
            If 4500 degree nanothermites were used extensively even at the top to cause a supposed upward explosion, then why were first responders able to walk over the wreckage less than an hour after the Tower collapses?
            If there were 2800 degree rivers of molten steel in the debris, then why do NASA thermal images show maximum temperatures in the rubble of only 1400°?
            If the debris pile had 2800 degree temperatures, then why were firefighters able to pour millions of gallons of water all over it and not trigger the deadly thermal explosions that are caused when water comes in contact with molten steel or iron?
            If nanothermites pulverized everything, then why did the debris pile include a 13-story high facade?
            If classic controlled demolitions create minimal damage to adjacent structures, then why did the Verizon Building suffer $1.4 billion in damages?
            If the lateral ejection of beams were caused by explosive nanothermites, then there would have been deafening 140 db sounds that can’t be muffled by more than a few db or you lose the explosive force of the shock wave itself.
            If the South Tower tilted 22° at first, then controlled demolition experts could not have righted it mid-collapse.
            If nanothermites were used, then they would have spontaneously detonated at well under 1000° F. and would not have been controllable; no signal receiving device could have survived the fires and continued to receive the destruct command.
            If there had been large explosions prior to the collapse, then they would have been a part of the seismic record, and they were not.

          • Freke1 says:

            so I guess the plane slipped through that tiny 16 feet hole (seems a bit magic to me but hey I no expert I can accept that). I looks to me like the towers pancaked down because of the planes. I’m just curious about what some eyewitnesses describe as explosions in the basement ok? People had to have reconstructive surgery because they were injured by these “explosions”. So that is why I asked if there were an official explanation as to what caused these “explosions” in the basement.
            If You don’t think there was “explosions” in the basement You can watch:
            and if You want to see some strange stuff from 9/11 go watch: (start at 2:55, just watch a few seconds)

            I believe an official explanation should explain these things or what are we to believe. That also applies to anyone claiming they know the truth about 9/11. At least they should say that: “we don’t know how that happend” or “looks strange, most likely this is what happend: …”

            or this debate can continue forevar 😉

          • AlexandriaNick says:

            Well, Mr Freke1, to address this: so I guess the plane slipped through that tiny 16 feet hole (seems a bit magic to me but hey I no expert I can accept that)

            There’s two things to keep in mind. The first is that wings are incredibly weak structures when put under stress outside of their aerodynamic loading. That’s why they come off so easily under overspeed conditions or when they hit things. Second is that a 767’s fuselage is 16.5 feet in diameter. Flying a 767 into a hypothetical brick wall a thousand feet tall and a thousand feet wide would result in…a round-ish hole about 16 feet across, as the wings shear off on the wall and the more robust fuselage is forced through by its own momentum.

      • Anonymous says:

        Afghanistan gave the US the majority of our heroin until the Taliban band it. We lost out main heroin connection until we kicked them out. now we get Afgan Heroin again. There is big money in drugs and you better believe the US government and the government’s owners get their cut.

      • i would suggest you read “Project for a new American Century” where it calls for a new Pearl Harbor…or catalyzing event. It’s a conservative think tank…not unlike the CFR or Tri Lateral Commission that seems to always produce our top executives in the political arena. Furthermore, i would tell you in terms of facts…It is an undeniable fact that in the history of the world only three steel framed highrise building have ever collapsed as a result of fire. And all three happened on the same day

        • What does that mean? In the history of the world there have been only 2 high rise buildings that were struck by fully fuel loaded passenger jets on the same day, and the third happened to sit at the base of those 2 buildings.
          Soooo does remarkable events produce remarkable results, yaaa no kidding. Does that prove the conspiracy? Only if you ignore the evidence, then you go anomaly hunting, dismiss the engineering opinion, assume that the all powerful federal government can hide all the evidence of a controlled demolition, silence the workers now 13 years later, hide that fact forever from future administrations(the oppositions party). For the express purpose of a war for oil and not get any. Plus add in with mutually exclusive whatever IDK buildaberger consipiracy. Then they knew that reputable engineers would come up with the just right yet completely wrong assumption about what caused the buildings to fall. Perfectly closing the loop and hiding the conspiracy forever. Then they have really big balls to be that secure they would never be caught in their lifetime. Or possibly they are so all powerful they don’t worry about being caught. But in that case just do what you want and screw killing the buildings.

          Ya those same government guys who in the past week let a armed guy jump the fence and run into the empty white house and didn’t lock the door. That’s right those all powerful Washington insiders with layers of planning and control, yet let some (Sic)zidiot with a blog watching you-tube videos piece together their conspiracy.

          And maybe just maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt:). It is way more plausible to me that a bunch of motivated and intelligent people who watched the US security for years developed a plan to crash jet planes into the world trade center, for a public display of fear. Plus they got lucky and the construction design of those buildings caused a uncontrolled fire resulting in metal sag and failure.

          Sorry just can’t buy the house of cards as you stack them.

          • endtimeboogie says:

            Or you could go & be an actual scientist & do your own analysis of say WTC1’s collapse using the multitude of recordings & a physics video motion calculator. Then you could work out what in means by using Newton’s laws of motion & the laws of thermodynamics. You will find that, WTC1 disintegrated at 6.31 meters squared per second acceleration. 6.31 m/s2 as it’s top section began to fall. 6.31 m/s2 as WTC1’s top section accelerated through its impact and fire damaged zone. 6.31 m/s2 as WTC1’s top section moved into its lower undamaged section, without any deceleration, none. The 6.31 m/s2 acceleration of WTC1’s disintegration continued. 6.31 m/s2 as WTC1’s rubble was ejected laterally & downwards, reducing the weight acting on WTC1’s lower section. 6.31 m/s2 as every single one of WTC1’s 47 evermore massive & rigid tapered continuous core columns failed. 6.31 m/s2 acceleration until WTC1’s disintegrated into it’s own dust cloud. The only part of WTC1 that didn’t disintegrate at 6.31 m/s2 emerged as WTC1’s dust cloud cleared. A remnant of WTC1’s lower core columns, all squarely severed are left standing until they too fall into the foot print of WTC1. The above facts are well recorded by multiple independent agents on multiple cameras of up to broadcast quality. Frame by frame analysis shows that WTC1’s disintegrated smoothly at 6.31 m/s2. However I doubt it you’ll remain wedding to what others told you & what it means.

      • Macky says:

        “Some intelligent well funded Islamic extremists got a little lucky, and had a good plan.”

        Unproven, except by US govt repeated story through the media, and “confirmed” by the 9-11 Commission, itself vetted by the White House before publishing.

        The alleged 9-11 attackers were never identified. Scientifically.
        Fl77 never took off that day according to BTS records.
        The alleged pilot of “Fl77” was incompetent even in light aircraft.
        His name changed from a list allegedly found in Atta’s luggage. How the list managed to change itself is uncertain.
        FBI files show said 19 were only “believed” to be the hijackers.
        Bin Laden was never indicted for 9-11 (FBI file).
        Alleged Olson phone calls from Fl77 never took place (FBI file).

        No conspiracy theory promoted by me, only criticism of the US govt story of 9-11 as per who the attackers were (therefore the wars in the Middle East), using US govt agency files as solid evidence. And critical analysis as per Skeptoid’s own mandate.

  13. Adam V. says:

    Great piece Mike! Tweeted and Facebooked… And that’s a true endorsement coming from a guy who’s children affectionately refer too as “Dale Gribble”!

  14. Allen Miller says:

    Great article and lots of interesting links for further reading. Thanks!

  15. There is no evidence a plane hit the Pentagon; no wreckage, no wing scars on the facade nothing.
    No bodies in the field in Pennsylvania.
    I almost joined the marines after 9-11 and after doing hours of my own research did the evidence reveal a overwhelming truth; it was a fraud.

    • Jay504702 says:

      I don’t really talk 9/11 anymore.. but this one is hard not to reply to. It is amazing that the Pentagon’s video footage has never showed a plane. Not many people question what hit the towers.. yet being that what is said to have happen in Pennsylvania and at the Pent.. yet no real evidence or video is out.. that adds to the questions. But for some I am afraid.. Still not enough to question the official story.

    • John Holotko says:

      actually there was a considerable amount of wreckage found at the Pentagon

    • Alexandria Nick says:

      Because I’m bored today, I’m going to go into the gory details in the hopes that no one ever trots out the “no bodies,” “small impact area,” or whatever because none of you seem to have a freaking clue about high speed airliner accidents.

      In 1994, US Air 427, a 737 with 132 passengers and crew, suffered from an uncommanded rudder deflection while on approach to Pittsburgh International. The crew was unable to recover and it impacted at an 80 degree angle (near vertical) at around 300 mph. It came down in a wooded area, on the dirt driveway to some nearby homes, and scattered debris over an area 700 feet across. Some debris penetrated eight feet into the ground. Despite the 700 foot area the debris settled over, the engines were just 25 and 30 feet from the center of the impact. The cockpit was 45 feet from the impact point. The tail was 20 feet away from the left wing, which is roughly where an engine was found. This (as well as photos) describe a very compact main crash site, compared to the overall debris field. Lightweight debris, such as paper, was recovered two and a half miles away, some as soon as two minutes after impact when golfers at a nearby course found insulation falling on them. All of this information comes from the NTSB report.

      The Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency also had a report of their own. The third sentence of the entire report reads: “The high-speed impact of the Boeing 737-300 shattered the aircraft and badly fragmented the remains of all on board.” Let that last phrase roll around your brain. On the next page, is the passage “with some 2,000 body bags and 6,000 remains.” Remember there were 132 people on board. And they needed 2,000 body bags. Everyone on board was reduced to 45 parts, basically. No part of the report refers to a body. Not a single sentence or phrase. It does, however, say “Most body parts were identified and then put in a gallon-sized freezer bag.” Look down at yourself and realize how small a part of you would fit into a gallon-sized freezer bag. Only enough teeth were recovered to use them in identifying just 80 people. Only enough recoverable fingers to identify 70.

      Feel like rethinking the claim that “pffff they didn’t find any bodies” from when an airliner plows vertically into a field at speed?

      • 3nd7ime8oogie says:

        Cool story bro, any references?
        You know like here are some references to the 80+ CCTV videos seized by the FBI from around the Pentagon but never released



      • Macky says:

        Alexandria Nick

        All US Air 427 crash demonstrates, is exactly what one would expect from a flight into terrain at that angle, i.e. engines, cockpit, wings found close to impact point.

        The Pentagon crash was a bit different, that solid and unyielding ground was replaced by walls, columns and floors which certainly did yield, caught fire, and collapsed.

        While not proposing any conspiracy theory, there are firm questions that remain re “Flight 77” (BTS records showing never having departed that day right up until about a year ago, now absent altogether) such as where were the holes from the engines which would have punched straight through the walls, they being the most collectively solid and heavy parts of the aircraft, on either side of the central hole from the fuselage etc.

        The engines on a B757 are set at 42ft apart, well away from the fuselage, and should have left seperate holes as they travelled on through, at the 530 mph NTSB said the plane was travelling at impact, much higher than US Air 427.

        Yet somehow the engines were found near the entrance hole. What then punched through all that building construction, and on through those Pentagon rings ?

        As for the passengers, of course there will be remains, and according to the US govt story, they (or most) were taken off site (therefore breaking the Chain Of Custody) and identified somewhere else.

        Yet the alleged five Islamic terrorists, at least one of whom managed to change his name from a list allegedly found by the FBI but never shown to the public (along with the Pentagon cams of the fly-in) were never identified, despite at least Hanjour’s brother being interviewed.

        Like the WTC 1 and 2 collapses, the supposed aircraft that hit three out of three targets at high speed, allegedly driven by light aircraft pilots the very first time they were allegedly on the flight decks of those B757/B767 aircraft, the Pentagon crash serves as diversion against why the US went to war in the Middle East.

        None of the 19 alleged terrorists were ever identified scientifically (DNA).

        The flights’ passenger lists MUST have been altered because of Hanjour’s name change on the list, especially Flight 77, which as I have said, showed as never having departed on 9-11 day re BTS records.

        The same FBI records that show these altered passengers lists and placement on the aircraft also show (on Fl77) NO connected calls from Barbara Olson to her husband, a key part of the 9-11 hysteria drummed up that awful day by US govt “official stories” pipelined through mainstream media.

        That so-called skeptics on Skeptoid still believe a US govt Official Story of momentous conspiracy theory that has no proof for it, shows that it is indeed possible to fool some of the people, all the time.

        • Alexandria Nick says:

          You can yammer on and on and on and on, but the key fact remains that you have zero interest in ever accepting that you have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to aircraft accidents.

          • Macky says:

            Alexandria Nick says:
            “You can yammer on and on and on and on, but the key fact remains that you have zero interest in ever accepting that you have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to aircraft accidents”

            It’s not a key fact at all. It’s just another ad hominem attack instead of addressing my refuting of your “facts” re aircraft wings.

            Especially your remarks in your March 8 post “wings are incredibly weak structures”
            ” as the wings shear off on the wall ”

            which in all of the three building impacts, clearly did NOT happen.

            At the Pentagon, the wings were not left on the lawn in front, and in both WTC’s, the slash marks and broken perimeter columns clearly show that the wing (and engines) were strong enough to have penetrated into the building, even banked across several floors edge-on.

            Perhaps if you took time to actually observe what ACTUALLY happened, plus pay a bit more attention to the other facts I’ve posted, things may be a little clearer for you.

            You’re beginning to sound like Another Nick, another (perhaps the same) supposed aviation expect who argued pro Official Story for 9 months on the old Skeptoid, his/your argument based on a flight path that was nothing like what NTSB posted for Flight 77.

      • ETB says:

        Stick with tales of forensic gore because the basic physics doesn’t care about such shock tactics it simply disproves the validity of the as seen on TV conspiracy theory of the New Pearl Harbor. https://youtu.be/NiHeCjZlkr8

  16. Hampron_West says:

    I’d like to leave a comment but I!m afraid the men in the black suits will trace it back to me.

  17. Ken says:

    So your article is based on your opinion. Do you or can you offer some kind of proof that legitimizes your claims that false flags have never been committed by the US government? I wish you could because I want to trust in my government more than anything. With the conspiracy theories and the lies we are told by our government I don’t know who or what to believe anymore. Reading this article was a waste of time. Reason being you gave your opinion. I want 100% undenielable facts and all I see is opinion after opinion. Proof!!!!

    • Ken says:

      You can’t mix a little fact with a little opinion and get the truth! That’s what you did in this article. If I am wrong then please give me a site that can offer me some peace of mind. What about the future of an economic collapse? Is that going to happen or are what? I think it’s inevitable(opinion)!

    • Ken, I’ve never claimed that “false flags have never been committed by the US government.” So you’re asking me to defend a position I never took.

      In terms of proof, we have overwhelming evidence that the September 11th attacks were perpetrated by 19 hijackers, and no proof that they weren’t. We have overwhelming evidence that the second Gulf of Tonkin Incident was a mistake stemming from the fog of war, and nothing concrete that it was engineered by the Johnson administration. And we have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the shooters in the tragedies of Arizona, Aurora, Sandy Hook, etc, were acting of their own volition.

      We have undeniable facts that these events happened exactly as we know them to have happened. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

      • Anonymous says:

        When You say “We have undeniable facts…” Your saying “The government (in which I trust) have concluded…”.

        Did You really trust the Bush government?
        see this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

      • Freke1 says:

        when You say “We have undeniable facts…” You are saying “The government (in which I trust) concluded…”. Did You really trust the Bush administration?

        see this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

      • there’s only one problem with that Mike…Many of them are still alive lol

      • Macky says:

        “We have undeniable facts that these events happened exactly as we know them to have happened.”

        If you’re talking about 9-11, not so. The only “evidence” is/was supplied by the US govt, and even some of that is withheld from the public.

        If you maintain that the US govt story of 9-11 (specifically who the alleged perpetrators were) is true, then that is a simple belief that the US govt has told the truth about 19 alleged hijackers who were never identified. There’s no independent evidence for it.

        ” Do you have evidence to the contrary?”

        Yes. US govt agency files. BTS and FBI.

    • Rob Struble says:

      “Do you or can you offer some kind of proof that legitimizes your claims that false flags have never been committed by the US government?”


      “I wish you could because I want to trust in my government more than anything. With the conspiracy theories and the lies we are told by our government I don’t know who or what to believe anymore.”

      Begging the question.

      “Reading this article was a waste of time.”

      Ad hominum.

      “Reason being you gave your opinion. I want 100% undenielable facts and all I see is opinion after opinion. Proof!!!!”

      Demanding he prove a negative?

  18. C says:

    Very well written! Thank you! I question and mistrust many things in this world, but I am sick of “everything” being a conspiracy. As if any entity would be so transparent ALL of the time. Duh. So, thanks for this article.

  19. Doug Diggler says:

    The author is this piece has a lot of facts wrong. First off, wearing the uniform of an opposing nation was not an acceptable practice in 1939, in fact being caught in the enemy’s uniform in either world war was a sure-fire path to being executed in the spot as a spy. It was only after the war when the British tried to nail Otto Skorzeny for this act during war crimes trials that his defense team pointed out that this ruse was repeatedly used by the British. Also the actual operation of Operation Northwoods was indeed vetoed by JFK, but it is clear that the methods were wholeheartedly adopted in the phony Gulf of Tonkin Incident and the [NATO directed] Italian Years of Lead as well as by French right wing factions during the Algerian War of Independence. All of this is well documented and a matter of public record.

  20. Tanya says:

    I have my own questions about the Sandy Hook event, and was looking here to see if you had some answers. You say: “To put it bluntly, if Sandy Hook actually was a false flag, perpetrated in secret by the government, it was easily discovered and poorly followed-up. Which leaves only the sad reality of 26 victims who died not at the hands of the New World Order, but of a psychotic killer.”

    So, you accept the MSM’s story on the event, because it was “eaily discovered and pooly followed-up?” There are no stupid spooks in your world-view?

    Robert Fisk said, suspect any attribution by “officials” in the media. If someone isn’t named as an official source, then what you’re hearing is someone’s propaganda. In the Sandy Hook event, if you followed the flow of information, there seems to be dueling propaganda. The “official version” is still full of contradictions, beginning with how many and what kind of guns were used.


    The timeline compiled by a professor of media studies is of interest, if you haven’t seen it:


    Thank you for the info on the Mukden Incident. I look forward to reading about it.

    • Hi, Tanya. I “accept” the “MSM’s” story because I haven’t seen anything that satisfactorily falsifies it. The contradictions you speak of are easily written off as errors in early reporting. Don’t assume conspiracy when simple incompetence will do.

      As for the idea of “stupid spooks”, I can’t imagine any secret agent or government operative being so bad at their job as to perpetrate a massacre and blame it on someone else, and have that fakery be discovered within hours by people who had no access to the crime scene.

      That strains credulity far more than a psychopath with a gun, which is a scenario we’ve seen time and time again.

  21. P.S. Wright says:

    Thank you for the article. I linked it for additional information on one of my pinterest boards. I hope that’s ok with you guys. I use Snopes so often, people are starting to think I work for them.

  22. Justin Kies says:

    I trust no one with the name Rothschild, sorry…

  23. robbes says:

    Nicely put, Mike. I think your article provides a well-balanced overview of this phenomenon, particularly in light of recent events.

  24. Anonymous says:

    Although you claim the latest incidents are not actual false flags you give no evidence of your own to support your theory, just restating whats been said by conspiracy skeptics. Although you are well spoken (written) you lack substance and mainly evidence. Your words mean as much as a Chili’s menu…

    • It’s not my job to prove they aren’t false flags. It’s your job to prove they are. Can you?

      • No Mike. People are considered innocent until proven guilty…Govts are guilty until proven innocent. Democide is the leading cause of unnatural death in the world in the 20th Century. Over 290 million people were killed at the hands of their own government from 1901-2000. To blindly trust oligarchs and state run media is not only uninformed it borders on stupidity. Governments and their bought and paid for mouth pieces lie when it actually would benefit them from time to time to actually tell the truth but they don’t. To not be skeptical of the propaganda being spewed out by these media sources is to be sheeple and lack the ability to think for yourself. What many of these events demonstrate and what the real meaning of false flag is what is commonly referred to as the Hegelian dialectic of Problem, Reaction, Solution. Create the problem…wait for the reaction and provide a demanded solution from the populous. While the public endlessly debates the details of events the govt moves to put in motion it’s agenda..The Patriot Act…The NDAA and the protection of the petro dollar by attacking any country that doesn’t settle it’s oil transactions in US dollars. IE: Libya…who was pushing for the creation of a gold backed african currency the dinar and Iraq who was silly enough in 2000 to start taking payments for oil in Euro’s. The point is Mike the US Govt is probably one of the most corrupt and evil empires in the history of the world, and i simply don’t believe a word they tell me or that their media partners owned by the same special interests that fund their campaigns endlessly provide under the pretext of journalism. Which is in actuality propaganda and the regurgitation of talking points.

      • Nehu says:

        You know full well that the burden of proof is on the storyteller and not the doubter knucklehead. Tell me a fantastic story and I’m going to want fantastic proof. The burden of proof becomes an even more serious issue when you change the god damn law instantly after the so-called event with not even a crime scene photo to show for it. Absurd!

        • Macky says:

          You’re right Nehu

          The US govt Official Story of who the alleged hijackers were and how they did it, IS a fantastic story. Alleged pilots hitting pin-point targets on the first go at high speed, the first time they were ever on the flight decks of B757’s and B767’s, the (Fl93) taking over passengers numbering among them martial artists, rugby players and at least one air hostess who was an ex-police woman well known for tackling crims on her own, by three “muscle” hijackers with knives or boxcutters, the alleged Olson phone calls that turned out to be non-existent, even the passenger lists with some of the “terrorists” names which MUST have been changed if we are to believe the FBI story of the list found in Atta’s luggage (which somehow changed at least 4 times in the next few days).

          But there’s no fantastic proof for it, not even ordinary proof.

  25. Rohan Donald says:

    So no attempt to actually explain the physical evidence most notably the free fall of WTC7. No attempt to analyse the NIST report, which by the way states that WTC7 did in fact free fall Pg46. No critical eye is passed over that NIST claims that ‘column 79’ led to collapse. No scepticism in regards to NIST’s refusal to release the computer model they used to calculate WTC7 collapse. No questions in regards as to why no government inquiry actually bothered to do any forensic tests to see if explosives were involved. No mention of the publication in The Open Chemical Physics Journal as to the presence of pyrotechnic residues, see the link. Just an meandering editorial. http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=861610 http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

  26. Sigma says:

    Thank you, Rohan. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Why did Building 7 collapse on the BBC news, 7 minutes before it did on our news stations? Also jet fuel wouldn’t burn hot enough to melt steel for more than a few seconds not minutes. The melting point for steel is between 2600-2800 Degrees Fahrenheit or 1425-1540 Degrees Celcius.

  27. Mattew says:

    “because he is to intellectually lazy to any look deeper into matters than listening to the news.”

    Or you can punch the name of the conspiracy into Google and get the REAL story from a bunch of fringe sites…because that’s not intellectually lazy at all.

    • Anonymous says:

      Or you could do your own simple analysis of the collapses of WTC1&2 using documentary video and realise that both towers colapsed at a constant rate of acceleration, not free-fall acceleration, just a constant rate of acceleration, then you could set about comprehending quite what that means.

  28. Sheryl4 says:

    So you know more than the over 2,500 scientists and engineers who have signed a petition questioning the political “non-scientific” 9-11 Commission Report?

    • Noah Dillon says:

      What degrees do they hold? What institutions granted those degrees? Was that list of names actually verified? When I last looked at it there were a lot of, like, biologists and psychologists from Bible colleges and degree mills saying that they don’t believe structural engineers. In other words, it’s a complaint from people who don’t really believe in science to begin with and have ideological biases against both the Federal government and against intellectual rigor.

  29. Sheryl4 says:

    Though this was bigger than the Bush’s and Cheney, they definitely had to have had a hand in it!

    • Noah Dillon says:

      What’s the evidence?

      • End Time Boogie says:

        ‘New Pearl Harbor ‘ ring any bells? PNAC’s stated wish for the above is purely circumstantial however the magic physics required for the vague official conspiracy narrative to be valid sure isn’t. A great example is WTC1’s disintegration a 6.31m/s2 acceleration during the entirety of its observable disintegration most crucially as WTC1’s top section move into WTC1’s lower section without any deceleration being observed.

  30. In the light of this killing machine called America False Flags would be the norm and by no means the exception. The corrupt countries and leaders we have placed in power backed and continue to back is a testimony to the litigitimacy of the information that supports the False Flag reality. Those who deny the testimony of those in high office who admit to the false flag Tonkin incident and the tapes that also reveal its truth are of the same mind that also believe that Harry Truman dropped the atomic bombs on Japan to save American lives, or the other lie that we went into Iraq because of WMD’s or to free its people. Probably the greatest deception that so-called American patriots believe is that the U.S, had some great God given manifest destiny which in turn gave it the right to slaughter anybody or anything that stood in the way of its development or it’s continued world wide expansion. Hear we do agree on something America may have had a manifest destiny and it may have been ordained by God but not the God of grace and love but instead the god that represents just the opposite and the fruit it continues to bare is a testimony to the god it truly represents.

  31. Thomas Paine says:

    Deceit is at the foundation of evil. It is, or can be very difficult to come to terms with evil. Somehow it always ‘begs’ the question “why”, and if that question cannot be adequately answered, then denial can become a slippery slope (denying something did in fact happen, or some person or group of people actually did said acts, e.g., ritual murder of children). It is also easy to project one’s own shadow/darkness/evil (one’s disowned parts) on to something or someone outside oneself, usually someone different than one’s self, to become the personification of evil, and worthy of ‘god’s wrath’ or simply destruction for national security. That is usually much easier to do than grapple with one’s own shadow/evil. Having said that, I do believe there are human beings that have become evil, that take pleasure in the control, suffering and destruction of others, of life in general, and that some of these people operate under the guise (deceit) of a socially acceptable appearance.

    I believe there are deeper issues at play here in this discussion, and that it would be helpful if somehow they could be brought to the surface. So often these discussion devolve into “if you believe this, you must be stupid, or in denial, or just plain evil” and other sorts of name calling. Once that starts, at least for me, I rapidly loose interest.

    On the topic of evil, from a psychological perspective, a book a recommend on the topic is:

    Political Ponerology: (A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes)

    link: http://www.amazon.com/Political-Ponerology-Science-Adjusted-Purposes/dp/1897244258

    May truth and love prevail.


    • Nehu says:

      Sandy Hook and 911 are just a few of the false flags. There’s plenty of evidence to show anyone with a logical mind set the truth of this. You don’t listen to what anyone else says, you look at how they changed the law a year before Sandy Hook and changed gun law in CT right after. These things coupled with the fact the everything’s been classified, withheld or redacted concerning the case should help any intelligent person read between the lines.

  32. Macky says:

    Mike says:
    “The existence of Operation Northwoods proves only that the US military has planned false flag operations. It doesn’t prove that any of what I wrote about actually WAS a false flag, including 9/11.”

    Yes and it was approved by the Chiefs of Staff. It didn’t take place but Northwoods demonstrates by US govt own files that such a thing was planned and most likely would have gone ahead had Kennedy not vetoed it. That’s why many true skeptics do not trust the US govt and its agencies/military.

    They don’t have to be conspiracy theorists. All they have to do is simply examine US govt records and mainstream accounts of mischief planned, and actual mischief carried out over decades of war and bloodshed.

    The Gulf of Tonkin didn’t have to be a deliberate False Flag attack for it to be used as an excuse to escalate US military operations that were already in progress against North Vietnam which the public as usual didn’t know about until later. The warmongers were already active.

    “And I’ve read plenty of questioning of “the official story” of 9/11. I haven’t found any of it to be convincing in the least.”

    What would convince you then, Mike ? A personally delivered letter from the prez ? Or would you be interested in US govt agencies’ own files that provide evidence that the “official story” of who the alleged perpetrators (therefore the Middle East wars) is unsupported by any evidence ? I posted said files on Skeptoid over 2 years ago. Nobody has ever discussed them.

    Or perhaps you as writer on conspiracy theories (along with others it seems) believes the US govt conspiracy theory that 9-11 was carried out by Islamic terrorists with OBL at the top of the chain of command etc .

    • ETB says:

      The basic physics disproves the as seen on TV conspiracy theory. The laws of physics perfectly predict the motion of a known gravity driven collapse, a verinage demolition. Those laws same predictions do not hold true for a WTC1 collapse theory. TV said WTC1 collapsed, physics says it disintegrated. That required energy well about what potential kinetic energy was available in WTC1’s top 10+ floors by definition of Newton’s 3rd law as confimed by observation of verinage demolition. Either engineering or a miracle was at work. http://youtu.be/NiHeCjZlkr8

      • Macky says:

        I’ve mentioned before that the continued arguments re the WTC collapses ultimately serve as diversions, with knowledgeable people on both sides bogged down in endless debates.

        The plain fact is that the US went to war in the Middle East supposedly because the perpetrators of 9-11 were Islamic terrorists sent by Al Qaeda and headed by OBL.

        That’s the bit that has NO evidence for it whatsoever, except what has been cooked up by the US govt itself and repeated through the media until accepted as truth by not only a large part of the general public, but by those that call themselves skeptics.

        Most skeptics who believe (“believe” being the operative word) in the govt party line of 9-11 require proof of whatever conspiracy theory is being promoted against the US govt Official Story, and rightly so.

        Those like myself who have no CT to promote simply question the US govt Official Story of 9-11 based on solid evidence against it.

        As such, the “skeptics” who regard any evidence against the Official Story as some kind of conspiracy theory, when it is NOT, have things around the wrong way.

        Because the US govt story of who the alleged perpetrators were, has no proof, the US govt Official Story itself is an unproven conspiracy theory that is either believed or not.

        If Skeptoid and its pro-US govt story supporters used the same skepticism and critical analysis they allege to use against conspiracy theories, and examined the evidence (none) for who the alleged 19 terrorists were, they would readily see that there just may be a chance that 9-11 could be indeed a false flag, in order to justify invasion of Middle Eastern countries.

        Naturally under the same rigorous examination, no false flag could be reasonably asserted until definitive proof was provided of who the actual perpetrators were, but that will not happen until those that call themselves skeptics and science writers etc actually examine the evidence against the US govt Official Story re who allegedly done it, and arrive at the supported conclusion that the Official Story does not stand up under scientific scrutiny, or even straight-forward critical analysis, Skeptoid’s own mandates.

        At the last, 9-11 was supported by 165,000 FD-302 forms, blatant Police State processes that the FBI has lawful backing to present, and change at will with no redress from the interviewees.

        Skeptoid (Brian) himself bitterly criticized the FD-302 forms and procedures he was subjected to in his own Google article ‘Setting The Record Straight’.

        That alone should engender some healthy skepticism from the Skeptics re ANY FBI investigation such as 9-11.

        • ETB says:

          Classical physics isn’t a debate & it’s never a distraction.
          You can try to educate about all the circumstantial evidence & you certainly have, however for those in denial it will never be enough, they don’t won’t to be healthy skeptics.
          If you think that people are open to the realities of 9/11 circumstantial evidence gets bogged down in volume, complexity & is never iron clad proof. The video I posted is the most elegant disproof of the as seen on TV 9/11, it really does work away on people who watch it.
          Most of the bunkers simply avoid Chandlers work or desperately misrepresent it, particularly this work as it has a full size real world verinage collapse demolition control to contrast WTC1 to, I cannot change the bunkers denial.
          However classical physics remains the most profound & succinct evidence as to the true nature of most any physical event, & most certainly to an event as circumstantially complex yet as physical as 9/11 .

          • Macky says:

            The collapses and classical physics re WTC 1 & 2 isn’t why the US went to war in the Middle East.

            False flag debates certainly become distractions when said collapses are debated, what ever classical physics has to say.

            It ultimately matters not whether those buildings collapsed because of the US govt party line, or pulled. The arguments re the collapses have ranged since 2001 with no end in sight. So what ?

            The plain fact is that the US govt fingered OBL, Al Qaeda, and 19 Islamic terrorists as the perps of 9-11, none of which has any solid evidence for it, and plenty against it.

  33. Macky says:

    “Noah Dillon says:

    June 28, 2016 at 9:32 pm

    I’ve never yet seen a false flag version of the September 11 attacks, even from you, that convinced me more than the consensus history. I’ve never seen one that didn’t rely on misinformation, misunderstanding, nonsense, non sequiturs, anti-Semitism, or some other hogwash, or one that relied on rational, scientific or legal evidence. And I’ve seen a lot of them.

    Bye, Mackey.”

    Spoken like a true believer, not a skeptic, Noah.

    ” I’ve never yet seen a false flag version of the September 11 attacks, even from you,” You won’t have, because like conspiracy theories re 9-11, I’ve never proposed any false flag allegations.
    All I’ve ever done is provide US govt files and critical analysis against its own US govt Official Story of who the alleged perps were of 9-11.

    They are rational, and scientific. And the link I sent recently re OBL never having been indicted for 9-11 flies directly against your statement from your previous post “and a few more have been assassinated, including the brains and financier of the whole thing.”
    OBL was never proven to have anything to do with 9-11 for a start, never mind being the financier and brains behind it.
    If there was any connection, the FBI file would definitely say so. https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden
    As you can see, the file says nothing about 9-11.

    My last post pointing these things out was deleted it seems. Is that what you meant by “Bye Mackey” ?

  34. Grey Doubter says:

    The saddest back/followup story regarding conspiracy theorists was told on an NPR program several years ago, focusing on the London train bomb attacks in July, 2005. A woman who survived subsequently called out one of the crazy conspiracy theorists, telling in horrible detail her experiences. The response? She was targeted, verbally attacked, threatened over and over, vilified by the AltUniverse nutjobs as one of the perpetrators, and I believe she was forced into hiding almost like witness protection, for telling the truth!
    The pathology has been studied in depth, exploring how a percentage of marginalized people feel a kinship in rallying around any theory which offers an odd, calming property – assurance that powerful dark forces are actually controlling everything, no matter how deadly, rather than live with the reality that randomness, unpredictability, and chaotic coincidences are beyond anyone’s control. Real conspiracies are often failures, backfire unpredictably, get exposed as leaks inevitably occur, because the facts aren’t neatly contained in self-closing loops as with crazy conspiracy theories. People always talk; if any theory requires an ever-expanding population of co-conspirators-keeping-the-secret, walk away.

    • Macky says:

      Greg seems to expose his own bias against conspiracy theories by his term “nutjobs”, and using an extreme example of bad behaviour of CT’s against a survivor of the London train bomb attacks.

      Like the death and destruction of the 9-11 attacks, when is it going to dawn on supporters of the Official Story, whatever it may be, that survivors’ harrowing accounts of the horror and bloodshed do not serve as proof of who the perpetrators were ?

      “People always talk; …” Do they ?

      MKUltra lasted for two decades, and if anyone had piped up and tried to reveal what was happening, that would have been the Mother Of All Conspiracy Theories. Yet what has been revealed is only a part of the scheme, most will never be publicly known.

  35. mudguts says:

    No.. it’s never a conspiracy theory Macky.. it’s a lousy posit.

    Honestly, after all these years of this character, yer still milking it..

    • Macky says:

      Milking what ? After all these years of my solid evidence presented directly against the Official Story and general theme of Skeptoid’s status quo protection at all costs, you (Henk van der Gaast) still haven’t presented a single coherent argument/debate against what I continue to assert;

      That when Skeptoid and its OS supporters are confronted with the very evidence they themselves require, if said evidence is against what amounts to their own beliefs, they ignore it.

      The 9-11 US govt agency evidence against the Official Story posted nearly three years ago was a classic example, totally ignored. never even discussed.

      Mainstream evidence against the sanctity of scientific medicine posted recently i.e the corruption of said medicine by corporate greed and power.

      Pearl Harbour official pseudo-history debunked and never properly addressed by its supporters.

      The main argument by Skeptoid re alleged Russian cosmonaut tragedies refuted by mainstream evidence but never addressed.

      TWA 800 official conclusions debunked by evidence and critical analysis, a supposed hallmark of considered skepticism, never addressed by any Official Story supporter.

      No conspiracy theories, only solid US govt evidence against its own US govt Official Story.

  36. Kendall Klitsch says:

    Once I initially commented I clicked the -Notify me when new comments are added- checkbox and now every time a comment is added I get four emails with the same comment. Is there any means you’ll be able to take away me from that service? Thanks!

  37. Macky says:

    “AlexandriaNick says:

    March 8, 2017 at 11:01 am
    Well, Mr Freke1, to address this: so I guess the plane slipped through that tiny 16 feet hole (seems a bit magic to me but hey I no expert I can accept that)

    There’s two things to keep in mind. The first is that wings are incredibly weak structures when put under stress outside of their aerodynamic loading. That’s why they come off so easily under overspeed conditions or when they hit things. Second is that a 767’s fuselage is 16.5 feet in diameter. Flying a 767 into a hypothetical brick wall a thousand feet tall and a thousand feet wide would result in…a round-ish hole about 16 feet across, as the wings shear off on the wall and the more robust fuselage is forced through by its own momentum.”

    I’m not sure whether you are talking about WTC1 & 2, or the Pentagon hole.

    Either way, the wings on a B767/B757 don’t just sheer off on impact with a solid structure for at least two demonstrated reasons.
    The wings of the aircraft impacting WTC1 and 2 didn’t sheer off and fall down the impacted face of said buildings. The video clearly shows them impacting and disappearing inside.
    And it was against several concrete slab floors edge-on, since both planes were banked on impact. One can also see the perimeter columns severed by the wings, as well as the central hole.

    A good reason for that is here https://www.quora.com/How-are-the-wings-of-large-planes-attached-so-that-they-can-support-the-weight-of-the-engines-and-the-fuselage-without-breaking-off
    “The FAA has standards for how much weight they have to be able to take. They’re tested using large hydraulic jacks, and a note is made of when the spars break. Famously, the Boeing 767 (IIRC) had to get a waiver because the wings never broke. They jacked them up until the wing tips touched above the fuselage, and they still hadn’t broken. Granted, the plane had a new dihedral when they released the pressure, but those things are crazy strong.”

    Another good reason for that is because the most solid (collectively) parts of an aircraft are the engines, the holes for which seem to be absent in the first photos of the Pentagon after it was hit (allegedly by a B757, whose engines are set 42ft apart.)
    If it was a B757, which I have some reason to both doubt and believe, then where were the three holes in the Pentagon wall, of the fuselage, and the two engines, connected and extended by deep slash marks, in the first photos ?
    At the reported (NTSB) Pentagon impact speed of 530 mph (which incidently is normal cruising speed at 35,000 ft, the engines must have been screaming in the sea-level air density), those engines would have carried on straight forward into the wall, the fuselage already crumpling/disintegrating/penetrating at the central hole before the engines and the wings arrived.

    Aircraft parts inside and around the crash sites also do not prove that Flights 11, 175, and 77 were the same aircraft (although they might have been), that they had been hijacked, that the hijackers were Islamic terrorists for Saudi etc, that they had been taken over by light-aircraft pilots among them, and flown with pin-point accuracy to hit on the very first try, at high speed, the very first time the alleged pilots were on the flight decks of those aircraft, said pilots never having trained in B757 or B767 simulators. That they were sent by Al Qaeda, planned and finced by OBL.

    All that story came from the US govt, by the US govt, “proven” by the US govt, “confirmed” by the US govt in a Commission criticised by its own Chairs and vetted by the US govt before publication.

    Like the WTC collapses, the arguments for what hit the Towers and the Pentagon only serve to divert attention away from who the alleged perps were, and why the US went to war in the Middle East.

    The 19 were never identified by DNA (scientifically) and the FBI is hurrying lately to alter its links to its own files that clearly showed that the 19 so named were only believed to be the terrorist hijackers, and that OBL was never indicted for 9-11, despite being wanted for other indicted crimes.

    Apart from the outlandish US govt conspiracy theory that 19 Islamic terrorists managed to control dozens of passengers with box-cutters and knives, then fly in the manner the US govt CT says they did, there is not a scrap of solid evidence for the Official Story, only holes in it that are still ignored by those that call themselves skeptics.

    Said skeptics themselves are believers in conspiracy theories i.e. the alleged 9-11 flights, two of which BTS record as never having taken off that day.

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