Skeptoid: Critical Analysis Podcast 
About This Podcast
Subscribe
Subscribe to the Podcast
Episode Guide
Skeptoid Forum
Hosted by JREF
Skeptalk
Email Discussion List
Search:
What Is Skepticism?
Swag & Crap
One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge
Videos
Appearances
What People Are Saying...
Press Room
Contact
Subscribe with iTunes
Twitter
Skeptoid on MySpace Facebook

There are no whack-job scientists

- Scientists Are Not Created Equal
Recent Comments...

Super Sized Fast Food Phobia
by Max: "I got a definition of artifical vs. natural for you. Are you ready? Natural is food we evolved eating, or food that passed the test…"

SUV Phobia
by N Ring: "Sure I agree with a few of your points but ultimatly I think this is a document written to be skeptical for skeptic sake. …"

What You Didn't Know about the Stanford Prison Experiment
by N Ring: "Ironic that you are asking individuals to be skeptical about a book/professor/experiment that is skeptical. Indeed all scientists go in with a particular bias when…"

An Evolution Primer for Creationists
by neil griffiths: "Yeah! That's why it's called "MYTH"#2! Fr om the works of Darwin Himself-p419-"It is well known that several animals...which inhabit caves of Styria and Kentucky, are…"

Blood for Oil
by Damien: "I am not sure if someone has already made this point, but oil is a fungible comodity. Therefore it does not matter who one's suppliers are…"

Subliminal Seduction
by George Gillan: "New research that might bear on the subject: http://www.ni da.nih.gov/newsroom/08/NR 1-29.html Title: &q uot; Does the Desire for Drugs Begin Outside Awareness? For Release January 29, 2008 NIDA Research Reveals…"

Skeptoid

What Do Creationists Really Believe?

Skeptoid #82
January 08, 2008
Podcast transcript | Listen | Subscribe

Stumble This
Share on Facebook
Old Earth Creationism Geology Biology
Theistic Evolution:
Evolution by natural processes is the tool God used
Yes Yes
Evolutionary Creationism:
Adam and Eve were the first spiritually aware humans
Yes Yes
Progressive Creationism:
Humans were a special creation event
Yes Most
Day-Age Creationism:
Six days of creation were six geological epochs
Yes Some
Gap Creationism:
4.5 billion year gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2
Yes Some
Young Earth Creationism Geology Biology
Omphalism:
Earth was created with the appearance of age and of evolution
Yes Yes
Young Earth Fundamentalism:
Invented versions of all natural sciences to explain Earth's age as 6,000 years
No No

If you've listened to the news at all within the last few years, you know that there's one topic which is always in the headlines. It's more lasting than terrorism, more pervasive than politics, and more personal than global warming. It's the war over religion; specifically, having religion taught as scientific fact. Replacing science with creationism. Whether it's Tennessee v. Scopes in 1925 or Kitzmiller v. Dover in 2005, religion versus science is always front and center.

Watching the news you've seen the $27 million Creation Museum in Kentucky, the largest and newest of the several museums throughout the United States depicting Biblical literalism as an alternative view of natural history. Dioramas show early farmers using small dinosaurs as beasts of burden. Dramatic displays show how Noah's flood created the Grand Canyon and all major geological features in a few days a few thousand years ago, and even give insight into how Noah kept all the dinosaur species on board his 600-foot ark. Most reasonable people are shocked by these flagrant attacks against intelligence. Does this mean that everyone who calls himself a creationist is certifiably insane?

As we see in so many aspects of our culture, it's usually the loudest and most outrageous fringe minority that makes the most noise and gets the most headlines. Rest assured that most creationists do not believe that Jesus rode around on a saddled Triceratops. There are, in fact, a number of different types of creationism. These variations conflict with one another and are mutually exclusive, and they are at varying odds with science.

Saddled Dinosaur
It is scary but true - this display at the Creation Museum shows that Young Earth Fundamentalists honestly believe that people rode around on saddled dinosaurs, and that Noah had them all on the ark

The movement called Intelligent Design is not a type of creationism, or indeed any particular set of beliefs, so it will not be included in this discussion of the various types of creationism. Intelligent Design is a blanket concept intended to show that the scientific method alone is not adequate to explain the natural world, and that a divine creator is a required component for any complete explanation of nature. All types of creationists rally under the banner of Intelligent Design with the explicit goal of getting a foot in the door to force their particular belief system to be taught as fact in public schools.

These types of creationists fall into two main classifications: Young Earth Creationists, who believe that the Earth is between six and ten thousand years old; and Old Earth Creationists, who generally accept the scientific measurement of the Earth's age at 4.5 billion years old. Within these classifications are other irreconcilable differences, which we'll now go through one by one.

Let's start with the forms of Old Earth Creationism. I'm going to describe five basic types. Philosophers and adherents will probably quarrel with my chosen five, as there are others, and there are undoubted overlaps between these, and many believers combine aspects from two or more. But let's stick with these five as being representative. Here they are, in order of how well they reconcile with science, starting with the best:

  1. Theistic Evolution. This is the Catholic Pope's officially stated position, and it's embraced by many real scientists of faith. Theistic evolution accepts both the geologic and biologic records, including modern evolutionary synthesis, and posits that these are simply the tools God chose to create the natural world. Theistic evolution allows and embraces scientific research and permits the acceptance of new information.
  2. Evolutionary Creationism also accepts the geologic and biologic records, and makes its creationist distinction in that there were a literal Adam and Eve who were simply the first spiritually aware humans, though they came into being in the same way as all early humans.
  3. Progressive Creationism goes one step farther. Progressive Creationism accepts the geologic record, and much of the prehistoric biologic record, including the true age of dinosaurs and other early lifeforms, but believes that the creation of humans and perhaps other modern animals was a special creationism event as literally depicted in Genesis. Thus, there can be no biological link between humans and early hominids from the fossil record.
  4. Day-Age Creationism is the belief that the six days of creation were really six geological epochs. Usually some effort is made to reconcile specific days in Genesis to specific epochs in Earth history, but since things didn't really all happen separately and consecutively like in Genesis, such efforts are generally somewhat ham-handed. But at least they're trying. Day-Age Creationism is what Jehovah's Witnesses advocate in their Watchtower pamphlets.
  5. Gap Creationism is about as far as the Old Earth model can be stretched. This model attempts to unify the true age of the Earth as measured by science with the literal Biblical account. Jimmy Swaggart advocates this model. Gap Creationism states that the first verse of the Bible, God created the heavens and the Earth, was followed by a "gap" of 4.5 billion years, during which time not much happened. And then, the literal creation of Genesis took place in six days about six to ten thousand years ago. Necessarily, this model has to abandon evolution completely, although it adheres to proper geology.

Now we move to the other half of creationist models, the Young Earth Creationism. Here we are forced to completely abandon reason and rationality. There are really only two main camps, and as you can see, they are completely at odds with one another, agreeing only on a single point: That the Earth did not exist ten thousand years ago. Let's now examine these two types of Young Earth Creationism, and once again we'll take them in order of how closely they adhere to real science:

  1. Omphalism. This is named after the 1857 book Omphalos, published two years before Darwin's Origin of Species, which explained that the fossil record was God's way of making the Earth appear to be old. Omphalos is Greek for navel, and the Omphalists believe that Adam and Eve were created with navels, thus having the appearance of being created through normal evolutionary biology. Adherents to Omphalism fully accept every scientific measurement of the age of the Earth and every discovery of modern biology, with the important exception that all such discoveries are wrong: God only wanted to make us think that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and that life evolved from lower forms. A true scientist doing real research can be an Omphalist. He will arrive at the correct conclusions, though he will believe that his measurement is merely what God wants him to see.
  2. Modern Young Earth Fundamentalism. Here is where the train jumps completely off the tracks. Modern Young Earthers, for lack of a better name, are the ones behind the Creation Museum discussed earlier. They honestly believe in alternate versions of virtually every science known, throwing away every shred of modern science that doesn't point to the age of the Earth as 6,000 years. They literally believe in Adam and Eve (without navels) and all the dinosaurs on Day 1, fossilization taking only a few hundred years, and all major geologic features having been created in a few days in Noah's Flood. They reject evolution, cosmology, geology, and every science that supports them; which, by extension, eventually includes every scientific discipline. However, in their minds, they don't reject them at all; they fully embrace completely wrong, misinterpreted, misunderstood, and misrepresented versions of them. Their worldview is based absolutely on the Bible as a perfect, unerring, literal historical account. As a followup, they have invented their own versions of natural sciences that they pretend supports this view. It is not possible to be a thoroughly researched Young Earther and still retain any grasp on rationality. This is the group making the overwhelming majority of noise in the media and modern culture, but it's not clear how large of a group this really is. They have the largest and loudest web presence, with AnswersInGenesis.org and the Discovery Institute, though out of 3.2 million Ph.D.'s worldwide they've only been able to find 700 who agree with their science, according to their list maintained at DissentFromDarwin.org. This represents 2% of 1% of people with advanced academic degrees.

So as you can see, the battle is not simply between science and creation. It's really more between the various forms of creationism, and especially between the modern Young Earthers and everyone else. There are perfectly rational ways to blend what we've learned through the scientific method with divine guidance, if that's your cup of tea. There are even reasonably, or at least relatively, rational ways to accept the gist of Genesis and still maintain a grip on reality. The majority of creationists are not entirely disconnected from reason. Even people like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who are often thought of as fringe fundamentalists, make an attempt to keep their beliefs reconciled with modern science. So long as this focus is maintained, we can be reasonably assured that our educational system is not headed for the proverbial rubber room.

Stumble This

Brian Dunning
Brian Dunning

References
© 2008 Skeptoid.com

Discuss!

5 most recent comments | Show all 304 comments

Remember, you should always read with skepticism the comments of anyone too lame to put their real name & city.

1. When was it ever proven or shown that the Bible is "perfectly and flawlessly written"? Not only do parts of the Bible (when taken literally) absolutely contradict mountains of scientific evidence, but the Bible also contradicts itself on occasion. Within the first book of the Bible there is a contradiction. What order were things created in? One of the most important stories in the book, that of Jesus' birth, contains contradictions between the gospels. The Bible is far from being flawless.

2. Religion is not needed to have a moral compass. There is an entire episode on this site dedicated to that topic. As someone who does not believe in god, I do what I feel is right. The basic moral guidelines are present in everyone from birth, regardless of their religious background. Then cultural standards are taught, and vary from place to place. All religion does is add superfluous moral guidelines that are unneeded and create unnecessary and confusing conflicts in the lives of those who try to follow them.

3. You seem to assume that all people who believe in evolution do not believe in god. You could not be more wrong. Some of the most famous champions of evolution also believe in god. They are able to mix what they believe to be true with what they have seen to be true. Just look into the work of Ken Miller if you don't believe me. He is merely an example of what is quite common in the scientific community.

Steve Loeffelholz, Iowa City, IA
June 12, 2008 4:12pm

What Do Creationists Really Believe?

I'll tell you...

1- that an uncreated god created everything from nothing, even though to do so means that the everything that originally existed (ie IT) couldn't have been everything, because there'd be no room for anything else!

2- that they are better than everyone else; have better moral standards and are IT's favourites, simply because they claim to "be good christians", yet in the same breath criticise and belittle others.

3- that they are right and every body else is wrong.

It's so easy, isn't it, to distance themselves from religious terrorists or Hitler or paedophile priests - simply by saying these people are acting out of character. Yet weren't they all raised to be good christains?

Well, you should try reading the book of Moses, you know the one where IT tells them to raise armies and kill every man, woman and child in those countries! Yet leave the cattle and goats because they are of some use!

Genocide's okay then is it? I mean since it's in the bible and all! And since it was IT's orders that they were following, I guess that makes it okay?

Funny. The Nazis used to say that:-

"I was just following orders".

neil griffiths, Cardiff uk
June 12, 2008 5:23pm

The book of Moses? What Bible are you reading from? Isn't that LDS...the cult founded by Joseph Smith?

Chris Ramirez, San Diego, CA
June 12, 2008 11:51pm

Ha, ha, ha... When I read that statement it just about summed everything up:-

"What Bible are you reading from?"

The bible I was reading was in my hotel room in Florida {it helped me sleep!}

I think it was Gideons.

It basically described (in the usual, laborious manner) page after page of repeated accounts of various armies being raised to do battle, at the command of their god, with the instruction "leave not a soul alive. Kill all the men, women and children - but leave the cattle, because they are of some use!"

What exacting moral advice for any army of god!

Nevertheless, isn't that the whole point about "what religious people believe" - they believe which ever story they prefer and hence which ever bible it appears in. Even the curan.

Funny, if you read a physics book, F=ma is the same equation, in which ever book you read. Even when 1/2 mv^2 was 'updated' by adding E=mc^2, it still made perfect sense; and can be tested by others, independently.

How unlike science, is religion!

How absurd the rationale behind it.

And in fairness to Mr J Smith - All religions are cults.

Do they not control your lives and take your money - ah yes, free choice...?

neil griffiths, Cardiff uk
June 13, 2008 12:39pm

I have to express my gratitude to Mr. Dunning for clarifying that not all Christians are radicals who choose to completely ignore all science.

Many Christians, such as myself, work in scientific professions where denial of the facts that we achieve through research and hypothesis testing, would be very contradictory of us.

Religion is certainly in itself not a science. You cannot know whether or not religion is real, you can only believe. Religion is based on faith, science is based on fact. Since I cannot claim to know everything about all of creation myself, I must judge the evidence presented to me by others and make rational decisions on whether or not to believe it.

Charles Randall, New Harrisburg, Texas
July 03, 2008 10:40pm

Make a comment about this episode of Skeptoid (please try to keep it brief & to the point). Anyone can post:

Your Name:
City/Location:
Comment:
characters left. If you paste in more than 1500 characters, it will be truncated. You cannot comment the same episode twice in a row. Discuss the issues - personal attacks against other posters will be deleted.
Answer 0 + 3 =

You can also discuss this episode in the Skeptoid Forum, hosted by the James Randi Educational Foundation.

Join the Skeptalk email discussion list.

Skeptoid book:
Now available!
 
Skeptoid: Critical Analysis of Pop Phenomena, by Brian Dunning
Watch Here Be Dragons, the 40-minute video introduction to critical thinking. Based on the Skeptoid podcast.
 
Skeptoid Widget
Newest

Spy Radio: Numbers Station
Skeptoid #107
July 1, 2008
Read | Listen (10:28)
King Tut's Curse!
Skeptoid #106
June 24, 2008
Read | Listen (10:43)
When People Talk Backwards
Skeptoid #105
June 17, 2008
Read | Listen (11:10)
Yet More Winning Listener Feedback
Skeptoid #104
June 10, 2008
Read | Listen (12:43)
Should You Take Your Vitamins?
Skeptoid #103
June 3, 2008
Read | Listen (10:12)
Newest
#1 -
The Detoxification Myth
Read | Listen
#2 -
An Evolution Primer for Creationists
Read | Listen
#3 -
Religion as a Moral Center
Read | Listen
#4 -
World Trade Center 7: The Lies Come Crashing Down
Read | Listen
#5 -
Apocalypse 2012
Read | Listen
#6 -
Super Sized Fast Food Phobia
Read | Listen
#7 -
Killing Faith: Deconstructionist Christians
Read | Listen
#8 -
New Age Energy
Read | Listen
[Valid RSS]
ZIP Code Database