Grounding 2: They Are Still Trying To Fool You

[Author’s note: I made a couple of edits to clarify a couple of the science points. I want to acknowledge the changes, but I am removing or changing a couple of phrases. I would normally just use strike-through text, but it looks messy in this post so I am just making the edits instead.]

I feel pretty famous today. Apparently, my blog post regarding the pseudoscience of grounding did indeed make it into the documentary film The Grounded 2 (warning: woo found at this site). Steve Kroschel, the filmmaker, did have a conversation with me in the comments section of the blog in which he defended grounding. He did so mostly by moving the goalposts. Each time I refuted one of his claims, he would either change the claim or move on to the next. Eventually, the same claims I refuted would come back, and I would reference my previous comments. We went around for a long time, until Steve stopped commenting after accusing me of lying. [Note: the video in the link above is dead, but it can be found on YouTube if you are interested.]

Before I discuss the science, I want to rebut the specific claim made by Dr. Gaetan Chevalier in the clip available on the website linked above. His claim is “this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.” I’d like to point out here a couple of differences between science and scientific skepticism and pseudoscience. If you notice, it is rare to see in my blogs for me to make a general comment on someone’s intelligence or knowledge. It is very easy to be wrong or misled. I certainly can be wrong, misspeak, or incorrectly read the data and results of a study. It is important to have scientific discussion because it does help correct those errors. In regards to grounding, I said Mercola, Ober, and Chevalier are over-interpreting their results, and that the studies are not well controlled. I attacked the information, not them. Questioning my intelligence is a classic ad hominem attack, and one clue towards concluding Chevalier is peddling pseudoscience.

The other part is questioning my credentials. While one’s education and experience certainly is a component of evaluating a source, it shouldn’t be the only evidence. I’m not sure what he wants to know about me, but right at the bottom of my blog I talk about how I (at the time) had just finished my master’s degree in physics and I was working as a college instructor. If they wanted more, they could have contacted me. I will admit: electricity and magnetism (E&M) was the hardest subject for me. I much preferred fluid dynamics and thermodynamics. It doesn’t mean I don’t have a good solid foundation in the subject, and I am always working to improve my knowledge. It seems to me they wanted to discredit me personally, because it is the only way to defend their position. It does appear Chevalier’s credentials are like mine—he taught electrical engineering. I have taught physics, as well as some of the basic introductory electricity classes for engineers. I guess his teaching counts for much more than mine?

Moving on to the science, I am going to try to summarize what happened in the video, as well as clarify a couple of points from my previous blog, one of which they bring up in the video. I want to start by reminding everyone, this is a blog. This is not a textbook on E&M. This is not even a general physics textbook. I am not going to be able to teach someone the basics of electricity in a single blog post. If I wanted to write a textbook, I would do so and make some money because it requires an extensive amount of work. Because I am just trying to impart a small bit of knowledge to my readers, I can occasionally over-simplify which can lead to misunderstanding. As I clarify, this will make sense.

Let’s start with a very basic lesson in the electric and magnetic fields. These fields are mathematical representations of what forces would be put on a charged particle within each respective field. Because these fields are vectors, multiple particle scenarios can increase the strength of the field or cancel it depending on the position of the particles. I will demonstrate this with the electric field. The electric field has a 1/r² relationship. What this means is that the field quickly decreases as one moves away from a charged particle. If one measures the field at one point, doubling the distance away from the charge will decrease the field strength four times. See the picture below to see what this looks like.

ElecF

A charge and four “electric field sensors.” Via PhET simulations.

In this illustration, the orange dots are electric field sensors. The electric field strength is represented by the length of the arrow. It is apparent the electric field drops away pretty quickly.

ElecF2

 

 

ElecF3

 

 

 

The next two diagrams above show a single charge and the electric field at some point in space. Adding a second charge on the opposite side of the sensor actually eliminates the electric field at the sensor; the fields are of equal strength, but opposite direction, so the vectors cancel. This means if another charge were placed at the point of the sensor, it would experience no net force due to the other charges.

This brings me to my first clarification. In the previous grounding blog post I made the following statement:

Another claim is that “alternating electric fields are present everywhere in the environment – they are radiated from wires, even when no current is flowing through them.” I can’t even begin to imagine how they came up with such a claim. Well, I guess I can come up with some far-fetched explanations and maybe find a way to make this true. Even in those cases, the effect would be so small that it would take some pretty sensitive measurements to do so, far smaller than the background radiation naturally produced by the sun (something Dr. Mercola constantly touts as being healthy).

Without going into details about the position of charges in the wire and doing a bunch of math, let me just say I should have clarified my point better in that paragraph. When I heard in the video the word “everywhere,” it indicated to me they are saying the effects can be measured or felt everywhere. My point here is that a wire, when at a potential relative to ground, has a very small field extending out radially from the wire. In a wire carrying electric energy, the field is along the direction of the wire, which is why the charges move along the wire. There is a small net outward field because, well, math. And that field diminishes quickly with distance. A small field can also be induced on a wire (like an antenna) when exposed to electromagnetic waves. In either case, because the field is small, its effect is essentially limited to a couple of centimeters. This is both due to the decrease in strength with an increase in distance as well as a cancelling of the field due to other fields that are present.

This brings me to the demonstration in the video. Chevalier holds up a wire, and brings a non-contact voltage detector toward the wire and it sets off the detector. At this point he states, “He doesn’t know what he’s talking about,” in reference to me. I see several problems with the demonstration. One, he takes my quote out of context (though again it is admittedly unclear). The non-contact voltage detector doesn’t go off until it is close to the wire (like it should). That isn’t everywhere, but very near the wire. Secondly, the wire is apparently plugged in – which wasn’t what was stated in the original Mercola/Ober video I was commenting on. They stated all wires radiate these fields. If all wires radiated fields that didn’t diminish with distance, non-contact voltage detectors would be pretty useless as tools to check if a wire is live or not. Finally, there are several other possibilities for setting off the detector, such as a static charge built up on the wire or insulator. These detectors can produce a small, but significant number of false positives.

The writer of the article also addresses this in the following statement:

This strikes me as as a patently silly statement, as that’s the whole point of antennas and rabbit ears on your TV: conductive materials placed in a coherent direction, will conduct and/or emit ambient electricity, period.

However, an antenna or rabbit ears are connected to something—your television or radio. So there is a connection which allows the current induced by the incident wave to flow. If the antenna is not connected to anything and the incident wave excites an electron in the wire/antenna, it will likely just be re-emitted when the electron returns to its ground state. That wave would be indistinguishable from any of the other waves in the environment. There would be nothing special about it. These 60 Hz waves are not what is being detected by the non-contact detector anyway—because if it did pick up any random EM wave in the environment it again would be an entirely useless tool.

The idea a wire just sitting there spontaneously emits an electric field of significant strength that it could be felt or detected more than a centimeter or two away is pretty absurd. We could discuss the electric fields emitted and absorbed in the form of heat photons, but that would be just as absurd. When we are close enough to anything, we can feel the effect of the electric field. The only reason I don’t fall through this chair I am sitting on, or that the chair doesn’t just pass through the floor is due to the electric repulsion between my butt and the chair and the repulsion of the chair legs and the floor respectively. I am always amazed at how powerful those fields (and the accompanying forces) can be when the charges are very near each other. However, I don’t feel the chair pushing me up as I rise from my seat—because the force drops off very quickly with distance.

As for the magnetic field, that does require a current. A magnetic field is produced when a charge moves. In a permanent magnet, the outer charges are all spinning in the same direction, each one producing a tiny magnetic field that add up to form a magnet. Wires are not made out of materials that like to stay magnetized, thus in order to produce a strong net magnetic field they require a current.

One other thing addressed in the video clip is what I nickname The Capitalistic Fallacy. The interviewer in the video leads Chevalier down the road to basically say because this would cure all disease, it would put the pharmaceutical industry out of business. What they are hinting is that the only reason they can’t get this information out there and get more money to study it is the pharmaceutical industry won’t let it happen. This is complete nonsense. Even if we assume for a moment this would cure some of the conditions they claim, there would still be bacterial, viral, and fungal infections. There will still be genetic conditions. Because the body is complex, not everyone would get the right dose of grounding, thus some of the conditions it could cure would still exist, though in lower numbers. The drug companies would still have plenty of business. Setting it up as an “us versus them” scenario is a football-field-sized red flag with the word pseudoscience printed across it.

I also love the part of the clip where I see Kroschel, the filmmaker, sitting behind Chevalier with a look of glee. He really seemed to have something personal against me in both the tone of his comments on the previous blog. Making this an entire section of his documentary was a bit surprising. I guess he really felt threatened by the science and needed some reassurance that I was “wrong.”

Chevalier’s demonstration in the video clip actually helps to strengthen my argument. The detector needed to be pretty close to the wire to detect a field of significance. Yes, we are exposed to electric and magnetic fields all the time. Light and heat are two good examples of this. All photons, including radio and TV signals, radar signals, microwaves, cell phone signals, infrared (heat and remote controls), visible light, ultraviolet, X-rays, and gamma rays are all the same type of oscillating electric and magnetic field. It is basically a transfer of energy. The reason we feel warmth next to a fire is in part because some of the infrared wavelengths interact with water really well. I don’t feel my hand get warm if I put it in front of a remote however. These 60 Hz waves caused by wires carrying current have a very low likelihood of interacting with our body. It is because the wavelength (related to the frequency) isn’t of the right length to interact with most of the chemicals present on our body.

Summary

Chevalier didn’t really prove anything, and their attempt to discredit me was misguided. While I wasn’t perfectly clear on every point in my previous blog, I cannot write an entire E&M textbook on the blog in order to ensure everything I type is not misconstrued. Chevalier is overstating the effects of the electric fields caused by wires. As my previous blog and comments also state, Chevalier and company grossly overstates the effects of grounding and the studies do not have good controls or blinding.

I do wish Chevalier or Kroschel would have contacted me and we could have discussed this before it appeared in the film. I think it would have been more compelling to have either had me change my mind and issue a correction or at least have been able to say they presented me with proof and I was unwilling to change my mind. However, they haven’t provided any proof. The video clip is not proof. It is not a controlled experiment. The test in the clip doesn’t even appear to match the conditions they are claiming are in place.

The hypothesis of grounding still does not have evidence supporting its use. While I wouldn’t pursue it because of its limited plausibility, they are welcome to continue studying it. However, I hope they improve their experimental methods, and at some point can be willing to share their results and whether their data supports their hypothesis or not. While it is technically possible their hypothesis could turn out to be valid, it is looking more and more unlikely.

One other note: I don’t normally like to pick on typos because I make several myself on a regular basis in this blog, but the date on the article on the Forbidden Knowledge TV website is August 15, 2014. Maybe they are writing from the future—I would love to see that science! I decided to add it as a footnote here just so if anyone notices the date discrepancy between my post and theirs, it is already addressed here.

About Eric Hall

My day job is teaching physics at the University of Minnesota, Rochester. I write about physics, other sciences, politics, education, and whatever else interests or concerns me. I am always working to be rational and reasonable, and I am always willing to improve my knowledge and change my mind when presented with new evidence.
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103 Responses to Grounding 2: They Are Still Trying To Fool You

  1. write on, Eric! you are making the world a saner place!

  2. Vere Nekoninda says:

    While I respect your writing and information far above that of the “grounding” proponents, I am a bit confused by some of your comments relating to the non-contact voltage detector, and the demonstration in the video. I don’t dispute your statements that the magnitude of what is being measured is very small. But your objections to the demonstration of the detector are curious, in your paragraph which begins “This brings me to the demonstration in the video.” You say, “we never see the other end of the wire”, “like it is attached to something”, and “the fact that the other end of the wire is attached to something certainly affects the demonstration.” At the 2:53 mark in the video, the speaker says, “We have a wire that is just plugged in.” That isn’t a clear and detailed statement, but we can take it as using the common American English expression, meaning that the lower end of the wire is plugged in to a standard, household 120VAC electrical outlet/receptacle. This would make sense with what we see in the rest of the demonstration, since a common use of these detectors is to tell whether a given wire is currently attached to a possible household current source.

    I have next to no knowledge of how these detectors work, but I have plenty of practical experience with the fact that they do work, fairly well. By placing the detector against the “hot” wire or pair of wires connected to a circuit breaker panel at one end, and an empty electrical outlet at the other, you can test anywhere along the length of the wire, and detect whether the wire is “live”. That is, whether current will flow when an electrical device such as a light bulb is plugged into the outlet. This detection happens when no electricity is flowing, and there is no electrical circuit (the wires constitute an open circuit, at that moment). If the circuit breaker is shut off, then the detector will not react to the wire. If the circuit breaker is on, and the wire is broken at some point, the detector can show where the break is, by reacting to all of the wire up to the break, and failing to react beyond that point. If there are several wires coming into the same electrical junction box, it is possible to tell which are live and which are not, provided that the wires can be separated from each other by a small amount.

    The fact that these detectors work reliably for this practical trouble-shooting use demonstrates that they measure something. You know more than I whether “EMF” is a valid name for what is being measured. But the demonstration in the video is valid and honest in showing the standard use of this kind of detector, and that it will react to a wire connected at one end only to standard household current.

    Later in this paragraph, you say, “Secondly, if all wires would set them off, non-contact voltage detectors would be pretty useless as tools to check if a wire is live or not.” I agree, and that seems to me to be the point that the person in the video is trying to make. These tools can detect whether a wire is live or not. Hence, something is being detected at a distance. I’m not seeing how you can present this fact as evidence against the demonstration in the video. Can you explain further? You end the paragraph with the statement, “Finally, there are several other possibilities for setting off the detector, such as a static charge built up on the wire or insulator.” Other things may exist, which could confuse the detector in some cases, but they are irrelevant to the fact that the detectors generally work well and reliably for detecting a “live” wire in a circuit that has no current flow at the time of measurement.

    • Eric Hall says:

      In both this video and the previously debunked video, they skirt around the issue. In this video for example, he says it isnt connected to anything and isnt clear if it is plugged in. In the previous video with Mercola, they also say “all wires.” They also say “radiate” – which I am being a bit picky but radiate to me says a photon emission.

      My concern in this is they are purposely vague and use scientific terms as a scare tactic (they are everywhere) without being realistic about the scale. There are likely criminals “everywhere” as well, but I dont live my life in fear of being robbed.

      I do appreciate your comments as I probably wasn’t clear as to what my concern was specifically. It helps me improve my future writings!

      • Vere Nekoninda says:

        Thanks for your response. I’m still thinking that your other points are much stronger. In the video that you linked, while Dr Chevalier is not an excellent and articulate speaker, I felt that his description of the setup for the demonstration was clear enough. I’ll put my interpretation/clarification in brackets. At the 2:53 point in the video, he says, “We have a wire that is just plugged in [plugged in to 120VAC at the lower end] connected to nothing [at the visible end].” While he could intend some other meaning, I believe that this is what he intended to convey. This is the kind of electrical situation that this detector is intended for, and this is the kind of demonstration that you would see at the sales booth during a trade show or Home Depot demo. Therefore, I think this is probably the least misleading and least inaccurate part of his presentation.

        • Eric Hall says:

          I cleaned up that paragraph and made note I made some changes at the top of the article. I don’t want to hide my error, but I didn’t think it was fair to leave it as is either because it could be misleading. Thanks again for pointing it out.

  3. Karolyn says:

    Just like hugging trees, grounding connects one to the earth; and it just feels good!

  4. Bruno says:

    The other day the electricity in the house was shut down unexpectedly. The local Electricity co. was carrying some kind of work in the neighborhood and I had received a letter to that effect but had plainly forgotten about it.

    I was watching TV and in my bed at the time and suddenly I felt something different and strange when the TV and the electricity was shut off.. My dog Bella who was on the floor in the bedroom also must have felt this something as her ears pricked up and she was looking around curious that something had happened.

    Now I have experienced Electricity shut downs before so it was nothing new to me but for some reason this one seemed different. As I lay in bed thinking why am I feeling this way its only an Electricity shut down, nothing to get excited about , I spotted a voltage multi -meter next to my bed and decide to measure myself.

    Being an earthing enthusiast I would often measure myself both earthed and not earthed.

    Normally if I was not earthed I would record 1.835 to 2.000 volts at different times.
    In this case with the Electricity switched off I was surprised to read a near zero voltage. I read the meter a few times to make certain that I was taking the correct reading.
    I then pondered to myself and said” where had that normal voltage of 1.835 to 2,000 volt disappeared to”. Is it normal that our bodies are meant to be close to zero Voltage as the meter had shown once I had a total electricity shutdown?????? Was that my natural state.?????

    So the question I ask,namely if my natural state is near Zero Voltage is the 1.835 + voltage that I normally carry around detrimental to my health in the long run?????? ( Or helpful for that matter)
    I think this is what earthing is about, questioning the natural voltage that our bodies should have.
    Clint Ober would say, that when you are earthed ( a near zero voltage of the body)
    you sleep deeper and for most people especially older persons it helps to deaden or clear their aches and pains.

    The proof is in the pudding by taking action and doing it. Its free and you can either walk barefoot or you can earth yourself whilst you sleep. All it takes is an earthing stake, a small piece of wire and a computer static bracelet to do test it. $20 material at your local hardware store.

    Since it accessible to everyone and its free, who would you believe, the experts who may be defending a multi billion dollar industry, or curious persons that have dared to check it out for themselves and seen that it works for them.

    Good place to start is http://earthinginstitute.net/faqs/ and there are many videos on You tube
    that can also enlighten you to be more curious of a perfectly normal fact of nature.

    • Eric Hall says:

      As I asked Steve many times in my previous post – what does that voltage measurement even mean? From a scientific standpoint, what does that tell us?

      • Bruno says:

        Eric good question and I don’t know.

        I have asked people that experiment in this area and have been told. Don’t know or they have not bothered to reply. One experienced researcher said we don’t look at it that way.

        • Eric Hall says:

          So you don’t see this as a problem? If you don’t know what a voltage reading even means, how do you know if one is better than the other?

          • Bruno says:

            Eric I do and that’s why I am curious to investigate further.
            The Voltage is an observation, and I am trying to figure what it means.

            Does not common sense ask you that possible the natural Voltage in the body should be close to Zero, considering that’s what I measured in my bedroom when the electricity went out. ( assuming my reading was correct)

            I also took a meter reading 50 Kilometeres from the city in a country log cabin with electricity running. with the electrical poles about a 100 metres away from the cabin. I was surprised that the average measurement of the people I measured was approx .450 Volts as I was expecting 1 to 2 Volts.

            You can question my readings and I am okay with that i If am using the Voltmeter incorrectly.

            On another note how does anyone evaluate something, you experience it or measure it. When your experience is similar to other peoples I suppose you feel validated.

            Now why it happened I don’t know and that’s why I am here.

            It seems to me that you value more the Mob heresay over individual experiences.

            Well in this case I don’t and whilst people like Janice post about their expereinces from http://skeptoid.com/blog/2013/01/26/more-mercola-misinformation-grounding-in-reverse/#comment-47295 ( posted under creative commons)

            I will continue to accept what I see and feel and investigate further what may be happening.

            How it happens I don’t know but something does happen according to all the anecdotes.

            cheers

          • Eric Hall says:

            The resistance of human skin can vary widely. So, depending on the current condition of your skin, the voltage measured has different meanings.

    • Vere Nekoninda says:

      Hi, Bruno. I’d like to understand your experimental setup and observations better. How are you measuring the voltage, when you say “I would often measure myself both earthed and not earthed.” Where do you place the test leads from you multi-meter, when you are testing yourself? What conditions are different, between the earthed and not earthed measurements.

      • Bruno says:

        Hi Vera,
        all I have done is place an electrical earth stake about a meter long into the ground just outside my window, run an electrical earth wire from the stake into my bedroom and attached to it a computer static bracelet, This is your earth where you attach the negative terminal. The positive terminal is held in your hand or placed anywhere on your body.

        When you are earthed you touch the computer static bracelet with your finger and the negative terminal. The positive terminal you hold in the other hand.
        When you are unearthed you just touch the earthing static bracelet with the negative terminal, and the positive terminal you hold in the other hand.

        The difference in Voltage is obvious and you can see it in the meter reading. In my case it was 1+ Volt difference.

        Go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnZjY_q2WQk
        on you tube for a better visual explanation.

        I am a curious old fart just trying to understand why the Volt meter acts in that way.
        If you are also curious and want to have a look at some past research on bio electricity may I point you to http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=body+electric+by+robert+becker&sts=t&x=54&y=12

        • Vere Nekoninda says:

          Thank you, Bruno. I watched the video link that you included, and I found it to be very interesting. I didn’t know whether you were measuring AC volts, or DC volts. I had also misunderstood how the meter measurements were taken. The video indicates that when the body is unearthed, current is not flowing through the body, and it therefore has an electrical potential (voltage) with respect to the earth. When the body is earthed, current is flowing through the body, and therefore, there is no voltage potential to the earth. I had assumed that earthing proponents would want to avoid using their bodies as conductors, and having current continually flow through themselves into the earth. The video indicates that I was wrong, and current flow through the body is the preferred situation.

  5. Graham says:

    @Bruno (If that is your real name…) I’ll see your long winded screed with the opinions of a full time barefooter.

    http://ahcuah.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/eye-on-ions/

    His most recent comments on both grounding and the selling of shoes with special studs to allow you to ‘walk barefoot on the Earth’ while still wearing shoes are also well worth reading:

    http://ahcuah.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/nothing-new-under-the-sun/

    • Bruno says:

      Hi Graham,

      Bruno is my Christian name.If you wish to write to me I can give you my email address.

      All I have done is to report what I noted when we had a recent electricity shut down.

      Yes I am curious to know whether near zero Voltage is the natural state of the body and whether in the long term in my case , the extra 1.8 to 2 Volt that I carry living at home is a useful thing to have or potentially harmful???

      As I am 70 years old, I would prefer these final years to be lived in optimum health, and that ‘s why I have an interest in earthing.

      The reason of how earthing works I don’t know.

      What I do know is that it has helped me to sleep and helped with my aches and pains (recently the recipient of a fractured ankle 3 weeks in hospital with surgery) and a recent freak accident causing a total hip replacement.
      Of course I have nothing to compare regards this hospitalization so I will not claim anything about aches and pains.

      I will say it certainly has helped sleeping.

      Personal investigations and experience I think is also a worthy action.

  6. Pete A says:

    Bruno, out of curiosity, why do you believe that increasing the flow of electrons through your body via earthing is a good thing rather than something to avoid?

    Call me silly, but the last thing I’d want in the presence of an electric field is to maximize its effect by earthing myself. Those who repair live power grid lines operating at circa 440 kV do suffer adverse effects, but only when a gust of wind causes the helicopter blades to sheer off by contacting the lines or pylons.

  7. Bruno says:

    I can only say that so many people have reported beneficial effects doing it.Possibility they are all liars??? Don’t know????

    Whether its the flow of electrons I don’t know.

    I fully agree with you regards the possibility of picking up some stray current especially in a lightning storm would not be very helpful, but then it is recommended to unearth yourself.

    I am wary of linking on to the electrical earthing wiring system in the house, and that’s why I have a separate earth stake planted in the ground.

    I am also trying to understand whether the extra voltage we all carry around with us detrimental to our health.

    Not everyone is a believer that EMF currents are not harmful in the long term.

  8. Pete A says:

    Thanks for your reply, Bruno. During the last few years I’ve been learning about various types of idiopathic environmental intolerance and about the placebo and nocebo reactions for a small subset of incurable chronic illnesses. It’s very clear from research that idiopathic symptoms are real (i.e. the patients are not liars), but the cause is never attributable to the claimed environmental stressor or any other identifiable agent. The research shows either insufficient evidence for, or strong evidence against, the claimed stressor being the cause of the idiopathic symptoms.

    Interestingly, the symptoms in most patients reduced after the patient took action to remove/reduce their claimed stressor. While it might seem obvious that the stressor was indeed causing the symptoms this is just correlation rather than causation. It seems to me that nocebo and placebo reactions combined with gaining a sense of control over their situation is a much more probable and logically justifiable explanation.

    During a power outage the background acoustic noise level drops yet this is far from obvious because we constantly tune out most background noise. If you’ve ever been inside an anechoic chamber you will know that total silence is eerily quiet! Normally, we don’t notice the faint hum from a fridge motor and the transformers in our appliances, but during a power outage the reduced noise level often induces a feeling of gentle peace.

    Gaining a sense of control over our environment, even if it’s just illusory control, also induces a feeling of gentle peace and contentment. E.g. having a neighbour with noisy children and a barking dog is far more stressful than if we have the noisy children and the barking dog simply because we have no control over our neighbour and we believe that we have total control over our own children and our dog. I think this factor is reasonably well explained by locus of control hypotheses in modern evidence-based psychology.

    If something is efficacious just via inducing a placebo reaction then it may be worth using depending on it cost-benefit ratio and provided that it has no harmful side effects. One of the harmful side effects I’ve observed from products sold to relieve idiopathic environmental intolerance is a strong tendency for the patients to develop an obsessive-compulsive disorder, which results in a downward spiral where they stepwise succumb to every environmental and food intolerance that they can find by searching the World Wide Web. It is extremely sad to watch this happen to just one person let alone watch many chronically ill people succumb to it.

  9. Bruno says:

    Thanks for your reply, Bruno. During the last few years I’ve been learning about various types of idiopathic environmental intolerance and about the placebo and nocebo reactions for a small subset of incurable chronic illnesses. It’s very clear from research that idiopathic symptoms are real (i.e. the patients are not liars), but the cause is never attributable to the claimed environmental stressor or any other identifiable agent. The research shows either insufficient evidence for, or strong evidence against, the claimed stressor being the cause of the idiopathic symptoms.

    ” Can you give us some concrete examples so I can get my head around what you are talking about”

    Interestingly, the symptoms in most patients reduced after the patient took action to remove/reduce their claimed stressor. While it might seem obvious that the stressor was indeed causing the symptoms this is just correlation rather than causation. It seems to me that nocebo and placebo reactions combined with gaining a sense of control over their situation is a much more probable and logically justifiable explanation.

    ” Ok ”

    During a power outage the background acoustic noise level drops yet this is far from obvious because we constantly tune out most background noise. If you’ve ever been inside an anechoic chamber you will know that total silence is eerily quiet! Normally, we don’t notice the faint hum from a fridge motor and the transformers in our appliances, but during a power outage the reduced noise level often induces a feeling of gentle peace.

    “Correct and that may explain why I noticed it as it was day time. Normally we have power outages at night and in pitch black you go in survival mode trying to find the torch with the flat battery or where you have placed the candles. No time for reflection here.

    In my example what I was asking assuming I was using the Voltmeter correctly, why the change in Voltage. Also is near zero Voltage our normal state of being??? ”

    Gaining a sense of control over our environment, even if it’s just illusory control, also induces a feeling of gentle peace and contentment. E.g. having a neighbour with noisy children and a barking dog is far more stressful than if we have the noisy children and the barking dog simply because we have no control over our neighbour and we believe that we have total control over our own children and our dog. I think this factor is reasonably well explained by locus of control hypotheses in modern evidence-based psychology.

    If something is efficacious just via inducing a placebo reaction then it may be worth using depending on it cost-benefit ratio and provided that it has no harmful side effects.

    “Agree with you”

    One of the harmful side effects I’ve observed from products sold to relieve idiopathic environmental intolerance is a strong tendency for the patients to develop an obsessive-compulsive disorder, which results in a downward spiral where they stepwise succumb to every environmental and food intolerance that they can find by searching the World Wide Web. It is extremely sad to watch this happen to just one person let alone watch many chronically ill people succumb to it.

    If I read you correctly are you saying that as you get older some people seem to talk about their medical conditions non stop ???/

    I have had that experience.

    However if you read the anecdotal case studies in the Earthing book, once people have found something that works for them they were extremely relieved. .

    This is Janice’s story from http://skeptoid.com/blog/2013/01/26/more-mercola-misinformation-grounding-in-reverse/#comment-47295 ( posted under creative commons)

    “Okay, I guess it is my turn. I agree with Janice (not a bad name since that is also my first name). Janice you are correct in what you have said thus far. As one who has had Rheumatoid Arthritis since the age of 15 (I am now 61), a severe IgA deficiency from splenectomy in 1983, hypothyroidism, and chronic pain and other health issues including an INability to heal without antibiotics are just a few areas that my health has challenged me through the years. I’m not here to convince but only to give my personal experience from Earthing. I was a HUGE skeptic at first and thought, oh gee, here we go again, another claim to make a fat $$ off of ill people. That is, until I decided to have an open mind and do the research published in the Journal of Alternative Medicine reporting ‘legitimate’ double blind studies done, thermography pictures from before, during/after Earthing contact showing inflammation levels significantly lower; showing significant blood viscosity changes (hence the warning to those who try Earthing that take meds like Coumadin that they should work closely with their doctor to monitor their blood viscosity), sleep pattern improvement and much more. After reading I decided I had nothing to lose and though the medical reports gave convincing evidence, I remained cautious but gave it a try since western medicine failed miserably for me after decades of various treatments only to result in reaching the point where I cannot take any treatments for my RA due to my severe IgA deficiency except treat the pain. In retrospect, all they could offer were pharmaceutical drugs that only ended up causing ulcers, allergies to meds and intolerance to antibiotics because I’ve had to take so many different treatments to fight infections. So, I bit the bullet and purchased a half sheet. Like I said, I didn’t expect anything to change but within one (1) week, a massive foot sore with scabs healed up after repeated unsuccessful attempts to treat and heal it through conventional measures over the course of four (4) years. The medical team affiliated with Grounding warn that if one is on thyroid medication to work with their doctors and closely monitor thyroid levels because Earthing has shown to ‘normalize’ the levels which if not caught, can result in being over-medicated. Due to my skepticism, I did not heed that warning. Hence, I paid a price. After several months of Grounding, I became hyperthyroid after being hypothyroid for at least two decades. Because I did not take their advice and monitor this, I ended up over-overdosing on thyroid medication which can be dangerous but it was my own fault. when I did realize what was happening, I contacted my endocrinologist who refused to believe me. As a result, she gave me no alternative but to take matters into my own hands which was frightening. Because of the frightening cardiac effects the medicine caused each time I took it, I made the difficult decision to stop altogether and hope for the best, trusting that the Grounding was indeed doing what it was supposed to–normalize the levels. I made an appt with a new Endocrinologist and went an entire month without any more thyroid medication until I saw the new doctor. He had every right to question me but he wisely kept an open mind and decided to see what the blood work revealed. Sure enough… the levels were normal for the first time in two decades after a month of taking no thyroid medication. One month later (2 total) the levels remained normal. They say once you need thyroid medicine, you will be on it the rest of your life. Tell that to the many people who have been able to discontinue their thyroid medicine after they began Grounding. No more hypothyroidism thanks to sleeping Grounded. Laugh and discredit all you will but I can personally testify that until one has health problems that allopathic medicine cannot help, manage or even heal it is amazing how open minded one becomes, even if a full blooded skeptic. I’m NOT claiming this is a cure-all as each person and health situation is different. It was by accident that I found this site. I became amused by the claims that this is nothing short of charlatanism (my interpretation). But there are too many backed-up testimonials of its benefits, including my own. Therefore, I could not remain silent. I have been laughed at for believing in this and even promoting it yet those same people can’t explain medically why I have improved. Explain that. Explain the blood changes. Explain the inflammation/pain improvements after over 40 years of pain and inflammation even with anti-inflammatory drugs. I can guarantee you that it is not psychosomatic. By nature, I am a positive person despite health challenges and disabilities. I only share what this has done for me health-wise. Continue to try to argue the theory behind Grounding all you will but friends who have known me for a long time have witnessed this amazing health discovery. And, I have only mentioned a couple of several major health improvements/changes that have occurred. I can’t speak to whether the electrical information and facts given by Mercola, et.al., but I can testify to the Grounding health effects. Thanks for allowing me this opportunity to share. Best regards, Janice #2

    Peter I cannot comment on what you have discovered as I am not in your field, however from my limited perspective regards earthing it seems to be that many people that communicate usually
    do so with great passion of how their health has improved.

    Are they liars could be????

    My gut feel is they are not, however gut feel is not being scientific.

    I certainly am interested in your research into Placebo/ Nocebo and if you have any postings that are interesting I would be appreciative if you could let us know.

    Thanks for being inquisitive and able to look at things with an ” Open Mind”

    Reply

    • Eric Hall says:

      As I have tried to explain to several commenters/supporters of this technique – why not consider the simple fact of relaxing. Read, for example, mayo clinic’s article on RA and find one of their suggestions is to find more time to relax. Relaxation has been studied and found to lower BP, cortisol levels, etc. Because the studies on grounding don’t control or blind for this possibility, the studies are pretty useless – and so are the anecdotes.

      • Bruno says:

        Eric have you read Janice”s story above and her Medical condition???
        If relaxation could be the key ( And that’s a possibility) why did not Orthodox Scientific Medicine suggest that instead of tormenting Janice for all those years with Antibiotics and more pharmaceutical drugs that solved nothing and must have cost her a small fortune.
        Your Orthodox Medical Doctors were using Science and Double blind Trials to prove there so called drugs worked????
        Cannot you see the contradiction?????

        Jane at great psychological risk looked elsewhere and trusted her instincts and slowly went on a trip of recovery.

        What would you have done if you were in her shoes. Stayed miserably sick and demand double blind trials before you dared to look at Earthing??????

  10. Bruno says:

    Eric that may be true if its all about relaxation. The earthing may help you relax and therefore we get these results. Look forward to more studies regards this approach.

    However I think there are other missing elements which we have yet to discover.

  11. Pete A says:

    Bruno, sorry my post was so vague: due to confidentiality agreements I’m unable to be specific or give examples. The downward spiral that I mentioned appears to be a combination of hypochondria and desperation — the rash behaviour resulting from the latter is the most troubling aspect.

    Here’s a good writeup of nocebo, which includes a link to the placebo writeup and plenty of reference for further reading.
    http://www.skepdic.com/nocebo.html

    You may find some things of interest in these articles:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control

  12. Bruno says:

    Thanks Pete A.

    The type of people that have the balls to look at earthing that I have met don’t seem to be hypochondriac.
    Taking some examples from the earthing book they seem to be the Janice type of person. They have long standing medical problems that somehow are cleared through the Earthing process.

    Of course there may be many people out there that it does not solve their particular medical problems , so I am not suggesting its a quick fix for everyone.

    Have you read the Earthing book. I found it inspirational reading about all those case studies of older folks getting relief from old ossified medical problems. Now has my positive outlook to earthing changed because of this,most probably has and that could have an effect on why I think earthing works for me.

    This possibly shows how the placebo is so important in all healing processes or to get a reaction. Its as if to get the best results one needs both the subjective world and objective world working in unison.

    In case of people becoming desperate it would seem that we don’r have the unison of these two worlds.

    Families provide good examples of this. I have great difficulties trying to guide and help my youngest son sorting his life challenges. I can clearly see the difficulties in the objective world he may be facing ( In which I could help him) however I cannot penetrate his subjective world as I don’t have the the communication key to open him up and start a meaningful dialogue.

    Thank you for the web addresses.

    cheers and good luck with your research.

  13. I thought it was pretty funny that he paid me to appear in his movie, then once the cameras were rolling, he wanted to discuss “my” blog post that “I” had written. He hadn’t even looked at the byline!

  14. Pete A says:

    Thanks, Bruno.

    I need to clear up a misunderstanding. The downward spiral that I mentioned, which appears to be a combination of hypochondria and desperation, seems to be specific to the subset of chronic illnesses that I’ve been researching: most of which affect fewer than 0.5% of the population and they usually start long before the onset of middle age. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that age-onset illnesses tend to result in hypochondria. As we get older we gain the ability to talk more freely and openly about our life problems — this is a good thing because suffering in silence (which is the way many of us were taught) is by far the worst way of coping! Bottling up our problems concentrates them; sharing our problems with compassionate and empathic persons diffuses them. As I’m sure you know, the placebo reaction isn’t just about being given an inert pill, it includes the awesome healing effects of sharing our life with others who are prepared to give us genuine empathy and compassion.

    My favourite example of the nocebo reaction (because it is the most dramatic) is MRI scanners. What are MRI scanners? Their original acronym, NMRI, was correct: nuclear magnetic resonance imaging. The general public reacted so negatively to the connotations of the word nuclear that it had to be dropped from both the acronym and the full name of these life-saving body scanners.

    If it was true that people who claim to be electro-sensitive have their health significantly degraded by very weak electric, magnetic, and/or electromagnetic fields then the humungous field strengths generated in NMRI scanners would kill them as quickly as a Star Trek phaser fired at them when set on kill mode. The only adverse effects from an NMRI scan are: claustrophobia; the loud humming noise; and being required to keep perfectly still during the scan.

    We see very strong (and very real) nocebo reactions to cell phones, Wi-Fi, and smart meter emissions because they operate in the microwave region: many people believe that all microwaves are extremely dangerous. Of course microwaves can be dangerous, but like any other hazardous agent such as mercury and snake venom, it depends totally on the dosage. The people who are terrified by tiny levels of non-ionizing microwave radiation from modern technology merrily sunbathe on the beach exposing themselves to circa 1360 watts per square metre of sunlight that includes circa 40 watts per square metre of carcinogenic ultraviolet light. But, they are on the beach still worrying about the harm from the minuscule radiation from modern technology instead of relaxing and finding peace.

    My apologies to Eric Hall and to the readers for my comments not being threaded. I’ve been clicking on the reply link at the end of Bruno’s comments (and experimenting with my browser settings) without any success.

    • Bruno says:

      Pete,

      My favourite example of the nocebo reaction (because it is the most dramatic) is MRI scanners. What are MRI scanners? Their original acronym, NMRI, was correct: nuclear magnetic resonance imaging. The general public reacted so negatively to the connotations of the word nuclear that it had to be dropped from both the acronym and the full name of these life-saving body scanners.

      “In my experiences with the MRI scanners it was the personnel I feared most in their white coats , totally oblivious to me as a human body but just concerned about whether I had moved or what they were reading on their instruments. Of course I was laying there with millions of negative thoughts about what they were looking for and why they kept starting and stopping the machine. Did I have huge tumors or Cancer???
      Its only when one becomes a patient, the “bunny” that one may fully understand the fear you experience when you lose control to those white robed ROBOTS.”

      We see very strong (and very real) nocebo reactions to cell phones, Wi-Fi, and smart meter emissions because they operate in the microwave region: many people believe that all microwaves are extremely dangerous. Of course microwaves can be dangerous, but like any other hazardous agent such as mercury and snake venom, it depends totally on the dosage. The people who are terrified by tiny levels of non-ionizing microwave radiation from modern technology merrily sunbathe on the beach exposing themselves to circa 1360 watts per square metre of sunlight that includes circa 40 watts per square metre of carcinogenic ultraviolet light. But, they are on the beach still worrying about the harm from the minuscule radiation from modern technology instead of relaxing and finding peace.

      I know a registered Nursing Sister with 40 years experience working in hospitals who fits that bill.
      According to her an Electric clock close to her head was responsible for giving her horrific nightmares and she instantly feels if anyone close to her has their mobiles switched on.

      To say its all in her head is a cruel way for not taking responsibility that the Medico knows Jack shit about this kind of ailment. Even though the Medico knows Jackshit about the ailment he still often charges full price and more to send you to another Jackshit know all the Psychiatrist. Professional thuggery and thievery all in white coats.

      Of course there are mental cases out there but to lump them altogether is unfair .

      Relaxing and finding peace in a medical setting, when one has ailments no one understands must be hell.

      I’m afraid I don’t have much faith in people with white robes Pete.

      I hope I have not misinterpreted your comments.
      Cheers bruno

      • Pete A says:

        Bruno, thanks again for replying (July 28, 2014 at 12:48 am).

        Your wrote “I know a registered Nursing Sister with 40 years experience working in hospitals who fits that bill. According to her an Electric clock close to her head was responsible for giving her horrific nightmares and she instantly feels if anyone close to her has their mobiles switched on.” to which you added “To say its all in her head is a cruel way for not taking responsibility that the Medico knows Jack shit about this kind of ailment…”

        To who or whom were you addressing with those two paragraphs? My clinical depression is most definitely ALL in my head yet it is a very real and clinically-diagnosable chronic illness — a mental illness that is estimated to impact the lives of 20-25% of people for the duration of at least six months. What exactly are you saying? Is it cruel that my “Medico knows Jack shit about this kind of ailment” and isn’t taking any responsibility for it because it’s all in my head?

        Of course clinicians know jack shit about electric clocks and mobile phones causing the very well documented symptoms of idiopathic environmental intolerance. This is because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to support them and, thus far, the endless stream of claimants have not just failed to provide convincing evidence, during clinical trials the claimants have provided robust evidence for their extraordinary claim(s) being independently-verifiably false in terms of the cause for the symptoms. As I’ve repeatedly said, the symptoms are very real (verifiable), but the claimed causes have been more than adequately debunked.

        Many people claim that wearing a copper bracelet relieves their arthritis. Clinical trials have shown that the relief is caused by the placebo response alone or in combination with damage to the nervous system from the absorbed copper oxide (not a recommended medical treatment!).

        You’ve asked some readers to explain Janice’s testimony. You don’t seem to understand that attempting to explain her testimony (or anyone else’s) would be medically unethical and highly unprofessional unless the reader had actually met her, was a qualified physician, and had obtained her permission to make public their previously confidential dialogues with her.

        The problem with on-line discussions is that they frequently lead to polarization of views, which seems to be occurring between the two of us. I bet if we were having this discussion in a nice pub or restaurant we’d find very little to disagree over and a plethora of life experiences to share and benefit from.

        My sincerest best wishes to you,
        Pete

        • Bruno says:

          To who or whom were you addressing with those two paragraphs? My clinical depression is most definitely ALL in my head yet it is a very real and clinically-diagnosable chronic illness — a mental illness that is estimated to impact the lives of 20-25% of people for the duration of at least six months. What exactly are you saying? Is it cruel that my “Medico knows Jack shit about this kind of ailment” and isn’t taking any responsibility for it because it’s all in my head?

          “I was having a rant against men in white coats ( especially Specialists ) and my experience dealing with them.

          My mother was under care of Psychiatrists who IMO were totally incompetent and useless ( 40 years ago) They may have improved with age.
          My son had a mild form of Epilepsy and all the Specialists I saw at the time again were useless with their pharmaceuticals that helped my son become a dodo.
          It was only when I finally took him to a Dental Surgeon who claimed he could cure 90% of Migraines in people that we saw improvement. Slowly we weaned him of the Tegretol and to my knowledge he has never had any problems since.
          The Dental Surgeon was later hauled in front of the Dental Board and his license was taken of him for practicing Medicine
          outside his field. He had a system called Dofos expanding the palate of the upper and lower jaw that gave good results.
          As he had the highest Dental qualifications the Dental Board would have returned his license if he would reneg working with Dofos, but because he was so convinced of his work he refused. Unfortunately he died of Cancer soon after and his work was forgotten.

          25 years ago Chronic Fatigue Syndrome was totally ignored by the Medicos claiming it was all in peoples heads.
          EMF sensitive people are now also in the same boat where the medicos here in Australia claim its all in the patients head, and this is what I was referring to. The Nurse was one particular example of which I am familiar with.”

          As I’ve repeatedly said, the symptoms are very real (verifiable), but the claimed causes have been more than adequately debunked.

          ” Well it depends what source you look at and what you are prepared to believe. I personally like to listen to individuals who may have had problems and some how resolved them. What happened , and why it happened does not concern me.”

          You’ve asked some readers to explain Janice’s testimony. You don’t seem to understand that attempting to explain her testimony (or anyone else’s) would be medically unethical and highly unprofessional unless the reader had actually met her, was a qualified physician, and had obtained her permission to make public their previously confidential dialogues with her.

          ” I don’t see it that way Pete A.

          Janice was kind enough to tell us her story and what she thought worked for her. She worked with the Medicos for so many years and seemed tormented by pain. Discovering earthing helped ease her problem according to her and I reported her story under ( creative commons)
          The reason I kept asking for points of clarification is that IMO people ignored what she had to say. It was only anecdotal.!!!!
          Well to her it was a real winner and why should we ignore and disbelieve what she thought may have happened!!!!!

          At 70 years of age I don’t necessarily believe what Pharmaceutical companies tell me to be true hiding under the umbrella of the scientific process.
          People lie and make up stuff all the time for profit,power and academic recognition.
          See Dr. Goldacre http://www.badscience.net/about-dr-ben-goldacre/

          I apologize if I have given the impression that I want to be RIGHT and have polarized the issue. It certainly was not my intention.
          I also fully agree with you that having a face to face meeting would be a better way to discuss these very important beliefs and issues.

          Thanks for listening Pete A .

          I am also struggling to make sense of Earthing.

          What I like about the discoverer Clint Ober , a very humble man IMO, is that according to the book “Earthing” he had had a gut full of the Commercial world we all live in, and went on a 3 year search trying to find “Meaning and Purpose” in his life.

          I can relate to that, I’ve been searching for “meaning and Purpose ” for 50 + years and still looking.

          I do enjoy reading your post Pete A.

          cheers Bruno

  15. Reg says:

    Good morning Bruno. I wonder if you are aware that those earthing wrist straps are actually totally separated from direct EARTH by a string of resistors that amount to some tens of millions of ohms. This is a safety precaution but it also means that their operation is dependent on the source resistance of any induced voltage being EXTREMELY high. If the source resistance of the voltage induced in your body was equal to the value of that stand-off resistor chain, you would still be left with half the generated voltage remaining on your body.

    I refer to voltage in the thousands of volts such as you may generate by shuffling across the carpet on a day of low or lower humidity. Now assuming your earth connection is NOT such a wrist device but instead, a great thick copper bus bar, there can be no voltage drop between one end of it and the other for you to measure. Two quite different situations.

    Now oxygen deprivation in sections of the brain as we age are usually dismissed as untreatable. These areas are shown as small white dots on an MRI. I presume that is oxygen in solution but the thing is that we are dealing with gasses and gasses are very susceptible to polarization. In the lungs we have a mix of several gasses, say nitrogen, carbon dioxide and oxygen and we expect turbulence to keep them mixed as we breathe. When I read of your mentioning a few volts above earth it’s rather puny considering that gas separation would require megavolts. I mention this to show that I have taken it into consideration. If the subject has any lung degeneration their breathing may already be compromised and voltage gradients could make things worse.

    Next is Earth Mats. Earth mats are required to ensure that voltage gradients that radiate from an earth spike do not reach dangerous levels dependent on the conductivity of the surrounding soil and rock. Here I’d like to refer to these gradients as two types. One horizontal and the other vertical. The Earth mat gradient is horizontal and the electrostatic voltage gradient upwards from the ground, is usually vertical. A vertical gradient could leave you head thousands of volts above your bare feet so perhaps it’s time to break out the Alfoil head-gear.

    If your EARTH connection is driven into the ground somewhere within an earth voltage gradient caused by flowing current and radial earth resistance gradations, and you measure to another earth stake in a different position, you will measure a few volts. Although to cover everything, if the gradient is radiating from the point of a lightening strike, this will obviously be more than the odd volt or two as few living bovine creatures may have experienced between their front legs and their back.

    I don’t think I’ve left anything out except to mention the time I was was way out in the Aussie bush when suddenly all the animals stopped tweeting or barking or what-ever the do. The silence was deafening and that night I discovered there had been a gigantic earthquake in Japan at exactly that minute. I guess they could hear low frequencies that I was not aware of.

    See how you go.

    • Bruno says:

      Good morning Bruno. I wonder if you are aware that those earthing wrist straps are actually totally separated from direct EARTH by a string of resistors that amount to some tens of millions of ohms. This is a safety precaution but it also means that their operation is dependent on the source resistance of any induced voltage being EXTREMELY high. If the source resistance of the voltage induced in your body was equal to the value of that stand-off resistor chain, you would still be left with half the generated voltage remaining on your body.

      ” I don’t fully understand you Reg. How would that relate to the time when the Electricity shutdown happened.??? When I had near zero Voltage?????
      Would those string of resistors have had any effect on that day??? “”

      Reg this next paragraph is way above my level of understanding.

      Now oxygen deprivation in sections of the brain as we age are usually dismissed as untreatable. These areas are shown as small white dots on an MRI. I presume that is oxygen in solution but the thing is that we are dealing with gasses and gasses are very susceptible to polarization. In the lungs we have a mix of several gasses, say nitrogen, carbon dioxide and oxygen and we expect turbulence to keep them mixed as we breathe. When I read of your mentioning a few volts above earth it’s rather puny considering that gas separation would require megavolts. I mention this to show that I have taken it into consideration. If the subject has any lung degeneration their breathing may already be compromised and voltage gradients could make things worse.

      ” I take your word for it ”

      I also take your word for the rest of statements as I am not competent to fully understand what you are trying to say.

      Your last statement about animals hearing low frequencies is a fair point. Are we also not vulnerable and maybe not fully aware of the frequencies that mother nature may bestow upon us when we walk barefoot or earth ourselves??????

      It seems to me though that too much anecdotal evidence appears where older people do note differences in their pain levels and sleeping habits.

      Now I fully accept Placebos/Nocebos as Pete was leaning towards but if that is the case then all of us are tainted by that possibility regardless of what kind of trials we do because of the fact that we are human.

      Thank’s for your open mind on the topic.

      cheers Bruno

      • Reg says:

        Yeah it WOULD be more helpful if we could scratch a few diagrams in the sand Bruno.

        Most people are unaware of the enormous part that source impedance or source resistance plays in subjects such as this. An example, if the resistor string is 20 million ohms, (normal value,) and this value reduced the induced voltage on your body to zero, the source resistance of that voltage would be hundreds, perhaps thousands of times that 20 meg ohms. Not a threat in relation to current flow but certainly a threat if there are electroscope polarization considerations. This latter is unproven because of Common Mode Cancellation effects!!!

        When the local electricity supply is switched off, this does not mean the earth voltage gradients have vanished. While they MAY have some local origin, earth currents can come from anywhere, even from the natural rotation of the Earth or perhaps even from induced Aurora shifts. Think here about current surges from the Sun that randomly destroy power distribution systems. The Earth is not a flat playing field at all. 🙂

        I should have expanded on the Earth mats comment. They are often encountered around radio and TV transmission masts but even on the smaller scale, the STAR point or Neutral connection of power distribution systems connection to Earth, need to contrive a mat with dimensions related to the soil type, most especially with SWER systems. That’s Single Wire Earth Return, much used to supply isolated farms.

        Slightly off topic but as an older person I am inclined to think that problems with breathing while sleeping will have more effect that these peripheral distractions. Exhalation while sleeping is a particularly low energy action and oxygen deprivation, as with sleep deprivation can leave one feeling particularly low.

        Good luck.

  16. Bruno says:

    Slightly off topic but as an older person I am inclined to think that problems with breathing while sleeping will have more effect that these peripheral distractions. Exhalation while sleeping is a particularly low energy action and oxygen deprivation, as with sleep deprivation can leave one feeling particularly low.

    Reg the above paragraph interests me .

    “I snore and honk most nights possibly due to the fact that I have sleep Apnea and to make matters worse I have been sleeping on my back since Nov 2013 due to freak accidents that saw me with a serious fractured ankle and to follow that , 5 months later falling of a bike and having a hip replacement.

    Some people have reported earthing has solved their snoring problems ( However not in my case)

    I recall whilst in Hospital they said I was low in oxygen intake and they had me on Oxygen after my hip operation. It seems for a few days I slept better however when I was taken off oxygen and went to rehabilitation that was the end of my sleep as I and all the others in the room would wake up on the hour thinking it was daylight.

    The minute I got home and earthed myself I had no problem sleeping deeply apart from getting up 5 times to go for a pee due to a prostate problem, which fortunately for me has gone to 2 to 3 times a night now.
    The honking strongly persists as I often wake up with a sore throat but I sleep deeply.

    On another note how would you explain Janice”s story??

    This is Janice’s story from http://skeptoid.com/blog/2013/01/26/more-mercola-misinformation-grounding-in-reverse/#comment-47295 ( posted under creative commons)

    Older people have no reason to lie especially about their health, and similar anecdotes such as this flourish in the Earthing story.

    What do you make of it??????

    Are they all liars or shills on the take??????

    Thanks for your interest , I do enjoy reading your posts although at times I don’t have the background to fully understand them.

    • Reg. says:

      Oh Bruno you have my concern. A person with sleep apnea must never sleep on their back so I can understand your searching for an alternative. I’m quite analytical with my meds but almost every time I change something I have to kick myself for accidentally charging something else simultaneously. This is no way to be objective about the effects of medications.

      I’m sure we have a lot to learn about the Earthing you describe, but then we leave ourselves open to the snake-oil-salesmen. I have yet to be convinced that Earthing ones-self can be expected to have a dynamic effect that is not related to something else.

      If we’re driven near crazy by lack of sleep or from pain – doing something radical can induce the remedy we seek. I was on Amiodrone for a heart problem and it buggered-up my thyroid control. Not my thyroid, the brain control of the thyroid. The pattern was a waking HIGH that petered out by lunch and became a lolling pest by afternoon, all while the TCH hammered at the door. So they gave me meds to make the waking level LOW as well. That meant the whole day was a LOW. Silly buggers. As my young cardio explained, our own bodies are the best laboratories when it comes to testing for sensitivity to side-effect and then it’s up to us to do something about it. Then what? Self-medication or removal of medication? This is the opening the snake-oil salesmen are looking for and a good 99% of what they push can be dismissed by the application of science. That’s far worse than most medication which is tested properly but then again, it is at the threshold of rejection of meds where the problems arise. What is great for one patient may be poison for another.

      You need a sleep-apnea machine if you’re forced to sleep on your back, but if grounding has the same effect, then you’re on the threshold of big things, but don’t get your hopes up.

      • Bruno says:

        I’m sure we have a lot to learn about the Earthing you describe, but then we leave ourselves open to the snake-oil-salesmen. I have yet to be convinced that Earthing ones-self can be expected to have a dynamic effect that is not related to something else.

        ” Fully agree with you.It could be related to something else.

        But how do you explain

        “This is Janice’s story from http://skeptoid.com/blog/2013/01/26/more-mercola-misinformation-grounding-in-reverse/#comment-47295 ( posted under creative commons)

        Older people have no reason to lie especially about their health, and similar anecdotes such as this flourish in the Earthing story.

        What do you make of it??????

        Are they all liars or shills on the take??????”

        Is she caught up with snake oil sales men???

        That’s what I am curious about???

        Hope you are well

        regards

        • Eric Hall says:

          I explained several times in that post – and since you continue to bring it up I will briefly summarize here –

          When you give yourself time to relax, you feel better. When you relax, it is well known it helps to reduce inflammation. Relaxing is a specific treatment recommended to those with RA. So if I sit in my chair and/or bed and I am forced to be calm and relaxed because I tied this device to me, I will feel better. mercola gives it away when he says “ever notice how you walk barefoot in the grass and feel better? Of course! I felt better last week when I was on vacation and walking on the beach. I felt better this morning sitting on my deck in the sun with a cup of coffee. It is the stress reduction that can easily explain these effects – and something the grounding studies have failed to control for.

          • Reg says:

            Pardon me Eric but both you and Mercola are slamming the table rather than addressing the problem.

            Relaxation works as we shuffle along the beach but then you can’t rule out the possible effects of grounding, unlikely as they may be. This is not religion it’s an hypothesis that is getting closer to being disproven but not quite yet.

            Sorry Bruno, I accidentally put my reply on the initial thread.

          • Bruno says:

            When you give yourself time to relax, you feel better. When you relax, it is well known it helps to reduce inflammation. Relaxing is a specific treatment recommended to those with RA. So if I sit in my chair and/or bed and I am forced to be calm and relaxed because I tied this device to me, I will feel better.

            “Eric fully agree with you however I find it difficult to understand what you mean by forcing someone to be calm or relaxed. The method I use is being earthed while I am sleep. There is no forcing relaxation you either fall asleep or you don’t.

            There has been the odd occasion that I woke up in the middle of the night with thoughts running madly around my head which surprised me that I just couldn’t get back to sleep. By reading a book for 20+ minutes I was then able to fall asleep once again and get back into deep sleep. Nothing new I know but I thought that I would add that the earthing does not necessarily guarantee you will sleep if you have shit going on in your life.

            Pity Janice is not here to tell us about her experience because it happened to her and not me.

            Relaxation is a wonderful thing however pretty hard to achieve. Most people take pharmaceutical tablets to do so.

            I would prefer earthing, but I cannot understand the forced relaxation you talk about.

            I agree relaxation can be part of the process, and I would be curious to understand how that comes about.

            I hope you are well

          • Eric Hall says:

            As I suggested, if they believe this works – then do the proper study. These people keep “studying” earthing – yet they don’t do the controlled studies to account for the effect of being relaxed. By relaxed I mean sitting comfortably and trying to calm the mind. Does it mean you are completely relaxed? Of course not. But in the study they are not allowed to do anything but sit there – which usually leads to at least some relaxation. Without better controls, there is no way to know if the grounding is having an effect. What I can say is relaxation has been studied and shown to have a similar effect as to what they see in grounding.

          • Reg says:

            The whole subject is far too complicated to center on Earthing.

            The last thing you need if you’re in an agitated state Eric is a cup of coffee. The relationship between strong coffee, atrial fibrillation and heart attack is well recognized. The information comes from WiFi connected defibrillators collected during and after death. same with alcohol or worse, a mix of coffee and alcohol.

            With this in mind, the process of slapping a savage alligator clip on your thumb could be far more distracting than the aura of an unseen voltage gradient. Stimulating in fact, if NOT heart-stopping.
            (Stop complaining you sissy, it’s only a state of mind.)

            Plunging into an icy ocean the same. Now THERE”S the ultimate in Earthing. Regular dips in the briny. 🙂 Most invigorating and it works for the fish.

          • Bruno says:

            Reg the power went of again the other day and since I was home I measured myself with my Voltmeter on several occasions.

            It was basically around 1.980 Volts when the power was on, and approximately .048 Volts approx when the power was switched off.

            My question then is what is the normal standard voltage of the body???? ( In the wild)

            If its .048 Volts approximately which is the measurement I have taken on 2 occasions now is the extra voltage we carry in the long run a detriment to our health???

            I accept the body can take a lot of punishment Eg ( Junk Food etc ) however since I am now in my 70’s I would if possible like reach a ripe old age IN GOOD HEALTH, without pain or visits to men in white suits that often know jack shit about these ailments.

            Cheers

          • Vere Nekoninda says:

            Bruno, you say, “My question then is what is the normal standard voltage of the body???? ( In the wild)”. This is a very important question in relation to earthing/grounding, and I’m thinking that it might indicate a misunderstanding of voltage and voltage measurement. It’s hard to describe the fundamentals of physics in easy-to-understand language that is also accurate, but I’ll aim for an explanation that is not too wrong, and not too confusing. This may sound simplistic, and you may already know most of it, but perhaps there will be some useful new tidbits.

            Voltage is a comparison of what the electrons are doing in two different objects (or parts of an object), and how they would interact, if connected by a conductor. When we test the voltage between two objects, we get a measurement of how eager the electrons are to flow from one to the other, should a pathway exist. The voltage meter itself creates a tiny pathway, but this is usually small enough to ignore. For example, if I connect one test lead of a voltage meter to the hot conductor of a household electrical outlet, and the other to the neutral or grounded conductor, I will get a voltage reading of around 120, or perhaps 240, AC Volts. This tells me that the electrons are very eager to flow from the hot conductor to the neutral, and back. If I connected the conductors with a wire, a lot of current would flow rapidly, the wire would heat up, and possibly melt with a flash. If I connect the two poles of a 9 Volt battery to the meter, I would get a reading of 9 DC Volts. The electrons are still eager to move from one pole to another, but much less so than in the electrical outlet.

            Now suppose that I leave the first test lead connected to the hot conductor of the electrical outlet, and move the second lead to another place on the hot conductor. For example, an adjacent electrical outlet on the same circuit may give you access to another point along the same hot conductor. When I measure between these two points on the same conductor, the voltage meter reads 0 volts. “Does this mean that there is no longer any electricity in the wire?”, a person might wonder. No. “Does it mean that the voltage measured previously in the wire has disappeared?” No, and that question contains a fallacy. The previous voltage of 240 Volts wasn’t measured measured in the wire. The previous measurement was a comparison between two different conductors. “OK, what is the normal, standard voltage of that hot conductor?” The term “normal, standard voltage” doesn’t have any meaning, unless you state what you are comparing it to.

            I apologize if this sounds trivial, but it has direct bearing on the question. If my body is isolated/insulated, and I put one meter lead on my skin, and one on either pole of a battery, the reading will be zero (a battery is DC). The same will be true if I test between my skin and the hot conductor of a household electrical outlet (house electricity is AC). If, on the other hand, I connect myself to the earth, and then meter between my skin and the hot conductor, the voltage reading will be indicate a voltage. The resistance in the meter protects me. If I did this with a plain wire, I might get a bad shock. If I flip the power on and off to that hot conductor, I can see the voltage measured between my skin and the hot conductor switch between 0 and something higher.

            My body didn’t change significantly when I flipped the switch back and forth. What changed was the conductor, and therefore, the voltage potential/difference between my body and the conductor. If I had a series of grounded power supplies with differing voltage potentials, I could do the same experiment with each one, and get different voltage readings on/from my body. But this doesn’t mean that my body’s voltage is changing. There is no natural, normal, standard voltage of the body. It’s not 0, nor 10, nor 100 volts. It’s not AC or DC. The concept of “voltage of the body” hasn’t been defined in a meaningful way. Different readings on the meter show changes in the electrical properties of the things that I connect to my body, and changes in how I am connected to them.

            When Bruno measures 1.980 Volts from his body with the household power on, and .048 Volts with the household power off, the main difference being measured is changes in the household electrical circuits, rather than changes in the body.

            If you insulate/isolate yourself from the ground, and every other electrical conductor created by our technology, then electricity won’t flow between your body and the environment. To me, this seems like the most normal, natural state of man, “in the wild”. In contrast, if you earth/ground yourself, then whenever a piece of technology creates a voltage potential between a conductor and the earth, and gets your body into the circuit, electricity will flow through your body. Maybe a very tiny current flow, maybe somewhat more, but you wouldn’t need a meter to sense a large current flow through your body.

            The articles that I have read on earthing/grounding the body make suggestions that seem backward to me. The authors advocate connecting the body to the earth, which will increase the amount of technology-derived electrical energy that flows through the body. If I were worried about these tiny electrical flows, I would prefer to insulate my body from the earth, in order to minimize the amount of industrial electricity flowing through me. If the volt meter shows a high reading when I am not grounded, and a low reading when I am grounded (and nothing else changes), then the lower reading indicates increased electricity flowing through my body to the earth.

          • Bruno says:

            Thanks Vere for a very clear explanation.

            What about if your body (cells) is not only a conductor but also behaves more like a capacitor???

            Wouldn’t that make a difference???

            Still curious

          • Vere Nekoninda says:

            Bruno, the body could act as a capacitor at some (very low) level. If you and/or God wanted to design an effective capacitor, the sack of salty water, that is roughly analogous to the human body, wouldn’t be a prime efficacious design choice. But subtle forces are sometimes significant, and sometimes irrelevant. Personally, I think the whole USA electrical system and standards should be redone, to eliminate the grounding system that we currently use (pun intended). But I don’t expect to see that happen in my lifetime.

          • Reg says:

            Right on about the US system of power distribution Vere. First up, the domestic voltage from 110 to 240 to reduce the I square R threat at every power outlet in every home. Thus also bringing the energy requirements of the average home more in line with source impedance. Switch every power outlet. Fit every home with an earth leakage detector. OK you can keep your 60Hz if you must but it’s a good opportunity to begin all over again. 🙂

            I don’t know if you use ring distribution in the US but it’s a very useful method of isolating power outages as well as covering twice the area that straight path feeders would.

          • Reg says:

            A Capacitor; Two conductive surfaces separated by a non-conductive dielectric of which dry air is given the dielectric constant ONE. If, instead of the air, the gap was filled with Mica of the same thickness, the capacitive value would be increased by about 10.

            The human body is largely an insulator with break-down voltages that vary over certain paths and depend on acidity, the contact resistance of the skin, the voltage applied and the source resistance. Nerve cells are separated by dielectrics but are in extremely close proximity one to the next. Dielectrics can be breached or made conductive, but are often self-healing. Epilepsy is generally accepted as cross-firing of adjacent nerve strands in the brain.

            Example of a self-healing dielectric; the moist air following a bolt of lightning.

          • Eric Hall says:

            Reg – however studies of various relaxation techniques all show the same effects – lower heart rate, lower BP, reduced stress hormones. Anywhere from yoga to mediation to reading and on and on. Not all had contact with the ground. So again the science says relaxing helps your health. No need to walk barefoot to do so.

          • Bruno says:

            Eric I agree with your comments 100% that relaxation is a wonderful state of being.

            However the reality is that your scientific men in white coats if they believe what you have stated use pharmaceuticals that often have harmful side effects to achieve this state. This relaxation business you are talking about is a multi-billion dollar industry!!!!

            IMO you get it for free and without any effort when you earth yourself before you go to bed.

            Which one do you think is the easiest path to take??????

  17. Reg says:

    Don’t worry about a few volts Bruno but I do have some bad news for you. 70 IS a ripe old age and from here on it’s all downhill. At 77 I just wish I was as healthy now as when i was 70. I can still sing very well, just can’t depend on standing long enough to do it. Tell you what tho, real fair dinkum, singing is better than ANY medication I know. All that lung activity and concentrating on technique!

    I frequently feel sorry for the retirees who have not cultivated a life-long interest they can carry over into their less mobile years. Let’s face it, status is bloody nothing once you retire. Even worse are the aged mothers who go around boring everyone shipless about how brilliant their grown children are. Temptation to strangulation!

    Midnight here and too high to sleep after singing.

    • Reg says:

      A splendid summary Vere.

      “The articles that I have read on earthing/grounding the body make suggestions that seem backward to me. The authors advocate connecting the body to the earth, which will increase the amount of technology-derived electrical energy that flows through the body. If I were worried about these tiny electrical flows, I would prefer to insulate my body from the earth, in order to minimize the amount of industrial electricity flowing through me. If the volt meter shows a high reading when I am not grounded, and a low reading when I am grounded (and nothing else changes), then the lower reading indicates increased electricity flowing through my body to the earth.”

      There are four points of confusion for the concerned.

      1. Static electricity.

      2. Why does the main supply even use or require a connection to Ground or Earth.

      3. The internal source impedance (or source resistance) of that voltage origin.

      4. … and as you point out, the two related points to which the voltage is connected.

      I shall try and add to your beautifully full description.

      1. STATIC VOLTAGES. Is the term usually heard, as we shuffle across the carpet we “build up a charge on our bodies”. If you recall Bruno, some time ago there was a fad for connecting an earth strap to the back of the car and dragging it behind. Same thing, the charge that builds up on the car, relative to the road, can be appreciable, especially in winter with low humidity. In the carpet shuffling situation the equivalent would have you connect a conductive strap to your ankle and drag it in your wake. Yes, even as you go for your morning walk, so careful, you may attract the dogs. Definitely a market there!!

      2. GROUNDING or NOT? An alternator, generator or battery only has two wires unless we’re considering a multi-phase system which we are NOT. Using the car battery as the simplest example, neither wire is connected to the Earth but one IS connected to the car frame. Therefore, the car frame has become the reference point. We may even call the car frame ground but it is more accurately called the common.

      This system is very useful because it probably halves the copper used in the car distribution system while creating other difficulties. BUT, not many difficulties, because ( unlike with home power distribution) the car is a stand alone device, it is not connected to a multitude of other cars with potential wiring disparities.

      Earthing has two reasons for being, functionality and safety.

      Only because of the functionality difficulty, does the safety issue come into consideration. In fact sometimes it is better NOT to have a common and instead run TWO distinct cables to the load. Unfortunately that introduces its own hazard if cable A accidentally connects to frame and somewhere else cable B does the same. unless fusing or circuit breaking is adequate, the cables may burst into flame.

      3. INTERNAL RESISTANCE of the SOURCE.

      In most power distribution systems the aim is to reduce the source resistance (or impedance) so that there is very little power lost in the internal resistance relative to the load. This is called I squared R LOSS. The current that flows through the load ALSO flows through the source. I squared R losses can become 50% of the generation capacity.

      However if the source resistance is VERY high, the current will ALWAYS be very low, in fact so low that it can often be totally disregarded but not if we’re dealing with sensitive equipment such as electronics. Most of these electronic components are interconnected to an equipment common. But as you shuffle to the work bench with this circuit board in your hands, you also generate a large charge on your body relative to the carpet. Remember our capacitor? That’s US, and capacitors can store gigantic charges.

      One flash and those components are history! That’s why we use a wrist strap but even then one must be careful about other sources of relatively high voltage, say the odd hundred volts.

      4. RELATED CONNECTION POINTS. So the originating source of the voltage is important because we wish to consider whether it has a common that is floating above Earth or perhaps is a supply with it’s centre point connected to ground or common. It’s far too simplistic to presume that all we need is a ground to ensure our safety and well-being, because sometimes it heightens our risk.

      Hope that helps and not too much.

    • Bruno says:

      Singing in the bath or singing with a choir???

      I agree that Singing is wonderful just like dancing.

      • Reg says:

        I like my Twitter friends idea. If she gives up sarcasm all she has left is interpretive dancing. Nice thought. Then there’s belly dancing!

  18. Bruno says:

    “The articles that I have read on earthing/grounding the body make suggestions that seem backward to me. The authors advocate connecting the body to the earth, which will increase the amount of technology-derived electrical energy that flows through the body. If I were worried about these tiny electrical flows, I would prefer to insulate my body from the earth, in order to minimize the amount of industrial electricity flowing through me. If the volt meter shows a high reading when I am not grounded, and a low reading when I am grounded (and nothing else changes), then the lower reading indicates increased electricity flowing through my body to the earth.”

    Hi Vere,

    I have been reading Dr. Robert O Becker “Cross Currents” and just lately “The Spark of Life” by Frances Ashcroft.
    Frances Ashcroft highlights in her book that the minute electrical charge of the body called “IONS”
    being different to the “electrons” of standard electricity of a household. As I understand it the charge is similar in both cases , however the body one being brought about by a chemical process through the sodium ,potassium ions etc…….

    So we can assume that we have some minute charge in the body and also whatever it picks up depending on the surroundings.

    Yes I agree with your explanation that the lower reading when grounded indicates increased electricity flowing through the body to the earth and the question being is that a good thing???

    Buggered if I know.

    However I could also ask in the long term is it a good thing to be carrying this Voltage around in the body????

    I fully agree with you that I wouldn’t be earthing myself around an Industrial area that may have dirty electricity or when storms arise for the fear of copping a wee charge up my Khyber that may take me to the other side or also if I survived turn me into a psychic??

    So I suppose I am asking why do you think its such a bad thing to earth oneself to get your voltage down to a much lower state.

    Also what do you make of all the stories and anecdotal evidence that older people say in how it has helped them???

    I have tried to convey my experiences to a few people with various pains of the body and for the most times it seemed to me that they were fearful in even thinking about such an idea, and that they would rather suffer their pain than look or try what I was suggesting.

    And remember I was not selling anything but a new idea ( discovered by Clint Ober) of how to possibly reduce their pain.

    If one is not prepared to look at it then one will never know if it works??

    I hope you are well.

  19. I always find people who must find there importance on discrediting people and ideas, like they are some heros, so fascinating. Wouldn’t it be more helpful to humanity to find a way to harness ALL that energy you put toward criticism to creating something instead.
    – Namaste

    • Noah Dillon says:

      Isn’t education about basic science principles and warning people against scams a way of helping humanity? If it weren’t for people like this you’d still be given snake oil for ulcers and dyspepsia and broken bones.

  20. Bruno says:

    Eric I am wondering why is it so difficult to reply to your last question received today 20/03/2015 by Email. In the past there would be a link that I could access and reply direct to your question.
    Can you help me . It was about Earthing and it was a reply to Coleen>

  21. Jonathan says:

    It took me a little while to fully understand that the general opinion/belief here is that grounding/earthing is fake. Haha…

    Trying to discuss the “physics” of it as I think you are (honestly can’t tell what argument has really been made). Would be as misunderstood as trying to understand how water works with and in the human body, but never studying the human body and claiming to be a “scientific” water expert or something. I kind of feel bad for you guys. I mean it seems like so much effort has been put in trying to discredit something that is so simple in concept and I would say even more than simple is apparent in truth.

    I think the most humorous aspect of this whole notion going on here is that what do you think people have to gain by letting people know that the earth has healing and anti-inflammation properties that are as free as the air you breathe? It cost no $$$. The whole thing is a genuine act of kindness, an absolutely amazing one at that. You would think they were selling some $6000 cancer pill that they have patented or something by the reaction here.

    Back to the basic concept/”science”/understanding here that is important to get.Earthing is not something limited by physics or whatever you want to call this.. that is probably the first thing one should take into perspective here. Earth > Physics. Not Physics > Earth.

    Physics is simply man’s science that involves the study of matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force. We are assuming that we have it right because we put the word “science” in there, but I ask you what is science truly. It is just a story. “Science” said the Earth was flat until like the 1500’s…

    The Earth is alive just an FYI for ya. Start thinking… we are all allowed and capable of it.

    Anyway good luck and good health to you all. Oh and try earthing out for yourself… I mean all you have to do is walk outside barefoot and stand in the grass for about 25 minutes to start to feel the effects, tell me now how hard is it to test that?

    • Eric Hall says:

      If you read the first article I wrote – I address that issue. If I am walking barefoot on the grass – it is probably warm out and the sun is shining – is that relaxing? Of course. I don’t see people doing this when it is pouring rain or a freezing winter day.

      Secondly, the flat earth anecdote is not true. Hell, you can find an article on Wikipedia about it – but we’ve known the earth was a sphere for a long time – because of science. But since you’ve already convinced yourself science is bad, I don’t know if you will believe anything I say.

      But let me leave you with a quote from Steven Novella:

      “What do you think science is? There’s nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. Which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?”

  22. Bruno says:

    ” If you read the first article I wrote – I address that issue. If I am walking barefoot on the grass – it is probably warm out and the sun is shining – is that relaxing? Of course. I don’t see people doing this when it is pouring rain or a freezing winter day.”

    Eric you keep harping about relaxation being important and I agree with you however its only part of the equation IMO. Also if its as important as you are trying to make out it is why is it not used in the real world when you visit a medico or a professional. All they seem to care about is spending minimum time with you and IMO they don’t give a hoot about relaxing you because all they are concerned about is the bottom line how to make money from you. When you are in Hospital sick instead of relaxing you they torment you with their rhythms of Hospital routines, their lack of staff and their Medicos who walk in like high priests murmur a few banalities to you and then walk out tormenting the 20 other patients they may have to see in the half hour time they have to spare.
    Regards walking in the rain/winter time why would anyone want to inconvenience themselves to Natures harsh environment. Does the Scientific Laboratories go into the field in harsh conditions to do their experiments?????

    Also when quoting Steven Novellas definition of Science you should take into account what Johnathan is saying namely
    ” The Earth is alive just an FYI for ya. Start thinking… we are all allowed and capable of it.”

    Test it for yourself with an open mind rather than slavishly following so called Scientific theories that often with time are superseded when new information comes to hand.

    Make Science an action project and not a thinking process. Learn from the past way of doing things when religion had the power and the Bible was its authority. Steven’s above definition could easily slot in to that distorted thinking of the past!!!!!!

    • Eric Hall says:

      Do you have a point with this comment? You seem to want me to open my mind…OK…where specifically have I missed something? How does earthing work other than how I described it?

  23. Bruno says:

    No one has claimed to know how earthing works Eric that is a figment of you not reading the post!!!!

    The claim is that it works for some people and they get enormous benefits out of earthing themselves.

    That’s it.!!!!!

    Suck it and see if you are interested if not that’s okay too!!!

    • Eric Hall says:

      But, “it just works” isn’t a good reason not to do a real scientific test to see if we can find a better, cheaper, and arguably less dangerous way to get the benefit.

    • Stephen Connell says:

      You can’t say something just works now accept it. It has to repeatable under scientific scrutiny especially when its being used on human subjects. If it genuinely works then what have you to scared of by having it tested?

      • Bruno Tonon says:

        By all means do scientific Tests who is stopping you or anyone else. There is no monies in it apart from a few crumbs.

        Putting it under scientific scrutiny by all means but when the Pharmaceutical Companies are on such a great gravy train making billions from their wares why would anyone promote earthing which is free and accessible to anyone.

        You either have faith in your Doctor even though when whatever he recommends does not work , or you have the balls to look elsewhere and to find something that does work!!!!
        Medical Cannabis is a great example where the movers and shakers are not the Medical profession or medical Institutions but ordinary Joe blows who had the balls to try it and finds out it works for him/her.

        Time to look around if the medical regime you follow does not work!!! Common sense really!!!!!

  24. Bruno says:

    Couldn’t agree with you more.

    However I have yet to see anyone that has posted here that objects to the idea of Earthing do this????
    I have reported that there is in my area approximately a 1Volt difference in my body , between being Earthed and not earthed. I have been told that’s meaningless and that ‘s the end of the conversation.

    You have reported that its “relaxation ‘ and I have agreed that’s also a possibility , however in real life and in the healing profession that does not mean much. Sure Medical professionals talk about it but usually don’t have the time to practice it.

    So where does that leave us in this discussion. Are we to ignore the enormous health benefits some people have claimed to have received through Earthing!!!!!
    This example IMO is similar to the benefits Medical Cannabis has on some Epileptic children. There is an abundance of Evidence where children have had there Epilepsy controlled by using Medical Cannabis, however the Medical Institutions are still ignoring these wonderful results and using their old methods that just don’t work on these children. Its in your face results and yet the Medical Institutions will not budge from their failed pharmaceutical procedures

    Do you not see a link here ???????

  25. Lisa says:

    As someone who has worked in Engineering departments for 10 years, and a hubby who is a 55 yr old Chiropractor, we have both researched this extensively. Once we got a grounding sheet on the bed, his back pain since middle school went down 30% in only 15 days. This was a big reason WHY he became a Chrio, but he was always in pain anyway, despite all the treatments he got. They helped a while, but got worse again in a few days. His pain may continue to go down, but we will see.

    My fibromyagia and chronic fatigue of 30 yrs duration is gone. As is my severe insomnia. An AC voltmeter shows the changes! I have a pad under my feet also. It keeps me from feeling sore when I need to work long hours.

    THERE ARE DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES out there! Look for them. Look at the thermographies. Look at the blood analysis. The proof is there. Then find a loved one and give them relief. People who need this are everywhere.

  26. Bruno Tonon says:

    Brian if you read Lisa’s post that”s what she did and the result was pain!!!!!

    If your health professional does not deliver the goods of course you would look elsewhere!!!!!

    Only a fool would stick to a regime that does not work and believe a Doctor or Health professional that offers only platitudes!!!!

  27. shawn says:

    I was expecting to read something the really helps to debunk the grounding claim, but to be honest, I do think you don’t know what you are talking about.It’s all AC, induction here while you were talking about electrostatics.

    • Eric Hall says:

      And that’s my point. They also mix the claims. Hell – in the video in my first post, they have the voltmeter on DC volts. They can’t have it both ways and expect me to believe their claims are legitimate.

      Let’s assume for a second they were claiming AC induction was the legitimate concern here. Their claim that grounding allows you to uptake free electrons and have your body use them would be even more ridiculous, because the elections would then simply oscillate.

      As a second thought experiment, let’s assume I am completely wrong about everything I said in my two posts on this. It doesn’t change the fact they haven’t provided any evidence of significance for their claims. I could be completely wrong; that doesn’t make them right.

      • Shawn says:

        Yeah bro, it’s actually a complicated model, I found one paper that tried to explore the human / AC field interaction with and without grounding from an EE department but the conclusion is , the inducted current (a very small one) depends on the experimenter’s bodily motion/position a lot, other than that, no other observation were seen. And the other day I was thinking, every time everyday you take a bathe/shower you are basically “grounded”, right? There do exist about 10 papers published suggesting significant results of earthing/grounding, but after some examining, half of them were authored by that guy, and all of them were published on some none Sci indexed,either predatory journals or the periodicals not recommended on the quackwatch site. I don’t know. But based on that guy’s resume, I can tell he is a loser in academic field who’s trying to make a living by any means.

      • Bruno Tonon says:

        Eric why do you persist in bagging the reason why some people have tried to explain how earthing works or not.

        The proof is in eating the pudding. Lisa and many others have stated “My fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue of 30 yrs duration is gone. As is my severe insomnia. An AC voltmeter shows the changes! I have a pad under my feet also. It keeps me from feeling sore when I need to work long hours.”

        Now isn’t that enough proof for Lisa and many others that the action she is taking through earthing herself is working. Fibromyalgia and Chronic fatigue Syndrome are debilitating sicknesses that destroy peoples well being, and from what I have been told are painful conditions to have. It seems to me that you would rather see sick people being tormented and suffering just because the actions they are taking namely in this case Earthing does not fit into your theoretical view of the world or how magnetic fields effect people. Do you really get joy out of tormenting people who have benefited from earthing or are you just trying to protect your day job because you most probably have been left behind keeping up with new modes of thinking!!!!!

  28. wyatt says:

    When you look at life apart from science you see people and palnts connected to Earth. This is how we evolved. Feet or roots on/in the ground reaching for the Sun.

    I guess you could argue all day long about whether grounding is woo but in the end Mother Nature doesn’t care one way or the other. The fat is we are electro-chemical organisms and need the environment we evolved in.

    Nowadays, we are apt to sheild ourselves from it with sunscreen, sunglass, clothes, hats, aircondtioning, indoor work, fluorescent light, wifi, nnEMF’s etc. etc.

    Subtle or not, I’m betting Nature knows best and your mitochondria will thank you for paying attention.

    • Noah Dillon says:

      What about air plants, stuff that lives in the sea, or bacteria that live inside other creatures? Kind of messes up the whole “nature is supposed to be on soil” hypothesis, right? The fact is that we get plenty of electromagnetic stimulation from the sun alone and basically none from the ground. So you can argue all day long, but you don’t have a leg to stand on or any facts grounding your belief.

      • wyatt says:

        I never said, “nature is supposed to be on soil”, but you are not an air plant. Do as you wish, no argument here. I do not need “facts” or science when I have my own experience to draw from, therefore I have three legs to stand on, “light, water and magnetism”.

        • Noah Dillon says:

          You said “When you look at life apart from science you see people and palnts connected to Earth.” You painted with the broad brush of “life,” and I point out three examples of life, off the top of my head, that don’t follow your claim. You could make a more specific claim, such as “when you look at how people evolved,” or some such, but it won’t make your claim about grounding any more accurate.

          Good luck in a life without facts. You should probably start by throwing out your computer and anything else you purchased. That’ll give you a good jump start.

          • wyatt says:

            You’re so smart, you win!

          • Bruno Tonon says:

            When someone does not accept the reality of some individuals as some sort of fact and proof that Earthing for some reason has worked to heal the serious ailments and sickness that orthodox medicine was not able to fully treat , then I would start questioning the doubters motives .

            When people rely on present theoretical studies as Dogma and forget about the application and practice in the real world , they are behaving in the same manner that the Church and its sycophants of the Middle Ages doubted anything that existed outside of their Bible interpretations.

            What a shame to have this kind of thinking in the 21st Century!!!!!

            I often do wonder what their motives are??????

          • Noah Dillon says:

            If it works then you can surely produce evidence for your claims. Speculating about supposed motives ignores the problem of presenting evidence.

  29. Bruno Tonon says:

    Noah can you be specific and tell me what kind of evidence you want >

      • wyatt says:

        Not a lot of money to research grounding or earthing, something that is a given for complex creatures such as ourselves.

      • Bruno Tonon says:

        Noah I agree any studies are helpful in discovering the hows and why something works and I am all for it.

        However I am a practical person so when I hear of the many miracle cures that so many people have recorded I,m in , I want to try to see if it also works for me.

        I trust individual people ( And their are many who claim wonderful results for ongoing medical problems Orthodox Medicine could not fix) more than I trust Medical Institutions especially when it comes to innovative ways of dealing with problems no one in the Medical establishment is able to fix .

        You on the other hand want proof from the Medical Authorities before you will consider innovative ways of looking at health. That”s also fine’.

        We just have different approaches to looking at challenges.

        • Noah Dillon says:

          If it’s helped as many people as claimed then there should be simple evidence for it. There isn’t. Individual people can mistakenly attribute some cause to some effect. That’s what science tries to overcome, that mistaken correlation. There are many people that claim many things, such as that flying saucers will carry them to heaven or that they were healed of constipation by handling snakes or whatever. That doesn’t make it so.

          I’m open to all sorts of things, with evidence. I don’t know what you mean by “medical authorities.” You can conduct experiments on your own. If you design a good experiment, have a pretty good sample size, and record your data accurately, then you can provide evidence. You don’t need any authority at all, just evidence. And if it’s good, then other people, whoever they are, should get the same results by doing the same experiment. That’s what science is. It’s not authority, it’s data and evidence. Please don’t presume you know what I want. This isn’t about different approaches. It’s about is there evidence or not. That’s it. You’re willing to believe without evidence. I’m open to anything, as long as there’s evidence.

          • Bruno Tonon says:

            Noah in today’s modern world there is no such thing as simple evidence to prove a point especially in the healing of the human body.

            Being a practical person I listen to what people have said about some of their miracle cures they have obtained by earthing and that gets my attention . Yes I could be misled or shilled upon however I am prepared to take on the responsibility and wear whatever outcome takes place.

            In this case it has been a most positive move for me and that’s why I am defending it. It may not work for everyone and I fully accept that.
            How it works I don’t know and if you read the past posts you may get some information that may throw some light on your inquiry.

            From what I can understand the people making wonderful claims to healing were very desperate in their search for a cure to their problems which had never been solved by the orthodox Medical authorities they were under. That was their motivation for daring to look elsewhere to try to find some mode of healing that would solve their difficult health problems. Did earthing heal them or was it placebo.

            Who cares especially the people that were healed. They are better for it and are laughing all the way to the bank having got rid of their financial costs they were lumbered with their past healing actions which did not work most probably administered by Orthodox Doctors.

            To say “That’s what science is. It’s not authority, it’s data and evidence”. is being naive to the real world out there. Don’t know how old you are but you still have a lot of growing up to do IMO.

            I know a few people who are in desperate need of finding some relief to their health ailments and yet when told of this IMO effective mode of treatment namely earthing , they won’t have a bar of it and won’t even do the homework and reading required to make an evaluation of it.

            You fit that mold IMO.

            Nothing wrong with that . That’s just how we are and that”s why life is not a bore!!!

            Have a nice day !!!!

          • wyatt says:

            A simple example of ‘science’ is drugs that are developed, studied, researched, sold to people via the health care system for an “illness”, either produce a result, no result or damage or kill the individual. That is science. It doesn’t work for everyone the same way grounding may not seem to. Done properly grounding will not kill and may even help to heal you.

          • Noah Dillon says:

            A simple example of science is computers, physics, biology, climatology, history, psychology, kinesiology, paleontology, astronomy, engineering, chemistry, zoology, and so on.

            You want to talk about the health care system? My cat has a genetic heart disease. I went to the vet who treated her and prescribed drugs, and now she gets to live an extra year or two instead of dying by drowning in fluids filling her lungs. My friend had a stroke, and went to the hospital where she was treated, prescribed physical therapy, and now is fully fit again. Her doctor also recommended a change in diet, which was already pretty healthy. My mother had a hernia that almost killed her, but she went to the hospital, had it fixed, didn’t develop any bacterial infections in the process, and is now well.

            So A. real illnesses, B. treated with medicine, which C. produced a result and D. didn’t harm or kill my friends and family members. Do you want to talk about personal experience? These are all personal experiences. You want to throw those out because you prefer your own personal experience? Why? Why should yours be privileged? Mine are rooted in the science of medicine. Yours has no evidence. That’s science.

          • Bruno Tonon says:

            Noah I don’t doubt the efficacy of some parts of the Medical profession.

            I also have had a broken ankle and a hip operation and the surgeon at the hospital did a reasonable job and I am eternally grateful for being able to walk normally once again. Having said that Doctors bury their mistakes so with all those burials surely they must have learnt something so I would be stupid to reject doctors skills .
            So I don’t reject Doctors , I just don’t trust them at least the ones I have met and therefore if the treatment dished out to me does not work I will look else where to try to solve the problem.
            I don’t live in a black and white world such as yourself , I prefer a grey one.

            I also don’t have any doubt in your experiences and great successes that you have had with the Medical fraternity and I am happy it has worked for you.

            However I do challenge your integrity and perceptions regards grounding. What is your objection to a treatment that is free (ie. walking barefoot on mother earths surface ) that does not cost very much to practice ( Basically a stake in the ground and a wire with a $1.50 computer earth bracelet attached to you, and yes a voltmeter to measure the magnetic field that surrounds you.)

            The results reported by countless senior citizens namely “including better sleep and reduced pain—from walking barefoot outside or sitting, working, or sleeping indoors connected to conductive systems that transfer the Earth’s electrons from the ground into the body. ( https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Benefits+of+earthing&rlz=1C1CHZL_enAU719AU720&oq=Benefits+of+earthing&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10071j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

            For many seniors sleep and pain are a common problem usually handled badly by pharmaceutical drugs and yet these maladies have often been solved by mere grounding ones self over a period of time.
            No one claims it works for everyone , however until you don’t try it you will never know whether you have won the jackpot!!!!!

            Now what causes these spectacular results especially say in a person like LIA and her Fibromyalgia is anyone guess and yes you could challenge the evaluation of the cause effect result.

            But from Lia’s viewpoint “Who gives a rats anus ” .she has no pain or a much more bearable pain and is better for it. Is it placebo, the body healing itself or earthing. Who cares !!!!!!!!!!

            If the medical profession were interested in listening to their senior patients , they could jump at the chance to investigate it, that is if they are really concerned about healing and not their back pockets.

            Now if you accept that the mechanics of human body works in an electrical/chemical environment, grounding makes some sense. See Dr.O. Becker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_O._Becker

            If not well lets agree to disagree.

            I am glad you had a great day !!!!!

          • Noah Dillon says:

            Again: you make an assumption that I “live in a black and white world.” I don’t even know what that means.

            I also don’t understand these contradictions: “the surgeon at the hospital did a reasonable job and I am eternally grateful,” vs. “I just don’t trust [doctors,] at least the ones I have met.” Or how about “a treatment that is free” vs. “a stake in the ground and a wire with a $1.50 computer earth bracelet attached to you, and yes a voltmeter.” Are those things all free?

            Also: I am opposed because it is deluded and not efficacious and seeks to convince people to forego simple lifestyle choices or medical treatment. I have an aunt who injured her knee. She went to several treatments with her acupuncturist, chiropractor, and an herbalist (all of which are also unscientific pseudo-medical woo). They charged her quite a bit of money and did nothing to treat her. A regular physician told her to get a $5 knee brace and, guess what, her knee’s better!

            No doctor would claim that any other treatment works for everyone. But they can provide statistical evidence of a treatment’s cost-benefit ratio. Can “earthing” do that? It sounds like the answer is No. If it could, I don’t doubt that doctors would recommend it to their patients. Take, for example, my aunt: her chiropractor, herbalist, etc. all also try to sell her additional treatments and curatives. Her physician didn’t sell her the knee brace and didn’t benefit from it at all. She went into that profession to try to heal people. If walking barefoot did that, I don’t know why she’d eschew it. And as you can see, I’ve already pointed out that profit has nothing to do with it, and for the same reason most doctors recommend a healthy diet and exercise, from which they also don’t benefit financially.

            YOU could investigate this, if you actually cared about its evidentiary basis. That’s what I keep saying. Why do you want some “authority” you already distrust to do your work for you?

            I don’t know what this means: “If you accept that the mechanics of human body works in an electrical/chemical environment” or why it suggests that “grounding makes some sense.” Couldn’t you also assume that licking batteries and sticking paperclips in the light socket make sense by that reasoning? And Dr. Becker’s discoveries about piezoelectric current don’t suggest anything about walking around on the ground, despite what you might think. When subjected to controlled scientific trials, his predictions about his discovery don’t actually hold up. So sorry.

          • Noah Dillon says:

            Did you see this disclosure at the bottom? “G. Chevalier, S. T. Sinatra, and J. L. Oschman are independent contractors for Earthx L. Inc., the company sponsoring earthing research, and own a small percentage of shares in the company.” It sounds like they all stand to make money if there’s research purporting a link between “earthing” and good health, and in the paper they suggest an indoor “grounded conductive system” to simulate walking outdoors, which sounds to me like a product—like to sell. Isn’t this the kind of behavior that naturalists like to accuse the pharmaceutical industry of? Developing fake research for financial gain?

            They also have a poorly designed study with a very small pool of participants, what appear to be lousy controls, and they took measurements that included “Complete blood counts, blood chemistry, enzyme chemistry, serum and saliva cortisol, magnetic resonance imaging and spectroscopy, and pain levels (a total of 48 parameters).” That’s usually a good way to get a false positive correlation. You take a boatload of measurements from a few people, throw out anything that isn’t helpful (the majority of measurements) and focus the topic of your paper on anything correlative. That’s bad science.

            Here’s a good explainer: http://www.wnyc.org/story/skeptics-guide-health-news-and-diet-fads/

          • Noah Dillon says:

            Oh, my dude, check it out. I did some more research. It turns out that Earth FX Inc. has a pretty shady corporate structure with a couple people cited as various positions with slightly different names:
            https://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Palm-Springs/earth-fx-inc/44552633.aspx

            If you click on their names, it shows a number of other “earthing” companies that try to sell stuff to people, including cosmetics and sleep aids:
            https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2cj9l5/jennifer-morris
            https://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Palm-Springs/clint-ober/67067112.aspx
            They’ve got a company called Grounded Beauty that advertises a mat (like the one described in the “research”) that you put on a chair. Their tagline is “Turn Your Relaxation Room into a Profit Center.”

            https://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Palm-Springs/a-clinton-ober/44552640.aspx
            https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2bmwts/clint-berger

            Oh my gosh, like, who knew that you could charge money for being barefoot?

            Come to think of it, the people that I see barefoot most often are hobos. They do not look like they’re getting much benefit from it, if any.

          • Noah Dillon says:

            There is absolutely such a thing as real evidence. Just because you don’t know how or where to find it doesn’t mean it’s nonexistent. You can conduct scientific experiments with controls and determine whether a treatment works or not. How cynical and nihilistic of you to presume otherwise.

            I’m not even suggesting that you’re misled by such testimonials. I said clearly: people make mistakes in attributing cures to nonsense.

            Testimonials do not shed light on my inquiries. Evidence does, as I repeated.

            Often people “desperate” to find cures in things like grounding haven’t begun by asking their physician, or have decided that they know better or something. Here’s a story: a family friend got a diagnosis of cancer. It was terminal. She tried regular medicine, then became desperate when the doctors kept saying they could prolong her life, but the cancer is still terminal. She turned to alternative medicines that promised miracles. All sorts of them. They said they had and would cure her cancer, that the doctors don’t know what they’re talking about. In the end, the cancer was terminal. She wasted a bunch of money on quackery and still lived about as long as her doctors expected. There’s a personal experience for you, but one that comports with science-based medicine. And the quacks that took her money are, to use your phrase, “laughing all the way to the bank.” Who cares? I care. They robbed a dying woman by making obscene promises.

            How is saying evidence trumps authority naive? Be more specific when you deploy an ad hominem like that. I told you: you go do the experiment and write it up and share the results. Then we can talk about evidence. You can be the “authority.” It sounds like you don’t know how the scientific method works. I don’t really care about your opinion of me, since you have no idea who I am. I’ve told you really clearly that I’m happy to give “earthing” a fair hearing if presented with evidence of its efficacy. You don’t seem interested in providing any, just deflecting by saying nonsense about authority and close-mindedness, etc. Maybe instead of focusing on who you imagine me to be, you could just answer the question and present some evidence.

            My day has been excellent, thanks. Beautiful weather, too.

  30. Bruno Tonon says:

    Noah says Feb 17

    “Also: I am opposed because it is deluded and not efficacious and seeks to convince people to forego simple lifestyle choices or medical treatment.”

    Evidence for this???

    The most striking cases of people claiming earthing has solved some of their problems as I understand it tried earthing in desperation because the orthodox treatment they were receiving from was not working and they were suffering. Suffering is a great determinant to look elsewhere which also motivates people to think outside the box.

    Well if you are not impressed by Dr.O Beckers work and discoveries we really don’t have much in common to discuss.

    Lets agree to disagree ,
    after all your scientific sources are impeccable and from what I gather you would rather see Senior people and others suffer with pain rather then allowing them to do their own research and to try to determine what other possible ways of treatment are out there that may help them.

    I am sure Lisa Feb 19 does not give a rats ass after curing her Fibromyalgia trying to find evidence that would satisfy your criteria.

    Going by your logical assertions you would rather see Senior people with pain ( And there are many of them) suffer and bear it because the Medical Institutions you follow state that”‘s all we can give you according to our scientific studies. Bear it and get used to it!!!!!!

    Well that may be fine for an armchair skeptic like yourself that most probably does not have any health problems , You don’t feel the pain and also don’t give a rats ass about other peoples pain!!!!!

    Glad to are having a nice day and that hopefully also you sleeping well !!!!!!

    If not try Earthing it just may work for you !!!!!!!

  31. Amy says:

    Well I don’t care about any of the reasons it does or doesn’t work. All I can say is from personal experience that since I started sleeping with a grounding mat on my pillow, my sleep has improved and my seizures have stopped. So I don’t care if it is proven or not, all I know is that grounding helps me.

    • Bruno Tonon says:

      Wonderful to hear Amy.

      The sleep is so important to us all and the seizures well that’ s an even bigger bonus. I only wish I would have known years ago about grounding and seizures because when my son had seizures as a child all the Medical experts I saw and their were many, just promoted the pharmaceutical Tegretol.

      Common side effects may include:
      dizziness, drowsiness,
      nausea, vomiting, feeling unsteady;
      dry mouth, swollen tongue; or.
      loss of balance or coordination.
      Tegretol (Carbamazepine) Patient Information: Side Effects and Drug …
      http://www.rxlist.com/tegretol-drug/patient-images-side-effects.htm

      Their so called scientific expertise also came at great cost!!!!!! The very expertise that these skeptoids here promotes as being scientific!!!!

      Now we know Medical Cannabis oil works wonders for seizures and for you its the grounding!!!!! Now my son had to suffer all these side effects from Tegretol, just because the medical Politics and fashion of the day were pharmaceuticals , when they knew as it was in the Medical Literature that Cannabis oil worked wonders for many people with seizures.

      I just cannot understand how some cruel and nasty people are so willing to want to stop desperate persons with health problems not look elsewhere when their medical Institutions have failed them!!!!

      Amy you know it works for you and that’ s wonderful to hear. You are an inspiration to all those people out there suffering needlessly to timid or scared to doubt the orthodox Medicine
      that has failed them .

      All the very best to you!!!!!

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