Betty and Barney Hill: The Original UFO Abduction
A critical look at the original UFO abduction story, that so many people take for granted.
Filed under Aliens & UFOs, Urban Legends
| Skeptoid #124 October 21, 2008 Podcast transcript | Listen | Subscribe |
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It was shortly before midnight on September 19, 1961 when Betty and Barney Hill had the experience which was to shape all of modern alien folklore. They were driving from Canada to Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Near the resort of Indian Head, New Hampshire, they stopped their car in the middle of Route 3 to observe a strange light moving through in the sky. The next thing they knew, they were about 35 miles further along on their trip, and several hours had elapsed.
Betty telephoned their close friend, Major Paul Henderson at nearby Pease Air Force Base, to report a UFO sighting. Major Henderson found that this was corroborated by two separate UFO reports from radar data from two different Air Force installations nearby. All three reports are officially recorded in Project Blue Book. Then Betty began having nightmares two weeks later. In her nightmares, she described being taken aboard an alien spacecraft and having medical experiments performed. As a result of these nightmares, Betty and Barney decided to undergo hypnosis. In separate sessions, they described nearly identical experiences of being taken on board the alien spacecraft by what we now call gray aliens: Short beings with huge black eyes and smooth gray skin. Both of the Hills had a whole spectrum of tests done. Betty was shown a star map which she was able to memorize and reproduce later, and which has been identified as showing Zeta Reticuli as the aliens' home planet. After the experiments they were taken back to their car in a dazed condition, and sent along their way.
Innumerable books and movies were made about the Betty & Barney Hill abduction. It was the introduction of the gray alien into popular culture. It was also the beginning of the entire "alien abduction" phenomenon. The physical evidence of the star map and the radar reports are said to have both withstood all scrutiny. In fact you almost never hear a critical treatment of their story.
Much of the Hill story is said to be based on these separate hypnosis sessions. In fact, that turns out not to be the case at all. It's important to note that it was more than two years after the incident that the Hills underwent hypnosis. During those two years, Betty was writing and rewriting her accounts of her dreams. All of the significant details you may have heard about the Hills' medical experiments came from Betty's two years of writings: A long needle inserted into her navel; the star map; the aliens' fascination with Barney's dentures; the examination of both Betty and Barney's genitals; and the overall chronology of the episode, including being met on the ground by the aliens, a leader coming forward and escorting them to exam rooms, the aliens' general demeanor and individual personalities, and the way they spoke to Betty in English but to Barney via telepathy. Betty wrote all of this based only on what she claims were her dreams, and probably told the story to Barney over and over again until his ears fell off over a period of two years, before they ever had any hypnosis.
During those two years, Barney's own recollection was somewhat less dramatic. When they first saw the light in the sky, Betty said she thought it was a spacecraft, but Barney always said he thought it was an airplane.
Betty's written description of the characters in her nightmare depicted short guys with black hair and "Jimmy Durante" noses. It was only in Barney Hill's hypnosis sessions that we got the first description of skinny figures with gray skin, large bald heads, and huge black eyes. After Betty Hill heard these sessions, suddenly her own hypnosis accounts began to describe the same type of character, and from that moment on, she never again mentioned her original Jimmy Durante guys. Many modern accounts wrongly state that her original nightmares also described grays.
Although the popular version of events is that Barney Hill's hypnosis description is the first appearance of a so-called gray alien in modern culture, that first appearance actually came twelve days earlier, on national television, in an episode of The Outer Limits called The Bellero Shield. The alien in that episode shared most of the significant physical characteristics with the alien in Barney's story: Bald head, gray skin, big wraparound eyes. The Hills stated they did not watch it and didn't know about it.
Remember: Before examining the specific claims made in a fantastic story, you should check the source of the story for credibility. Barney Hill died only a few years after the alleged incident, but Betty Hill stuck around long enough for her credibility to be pretty thoroughly demonstrated. Skeptical Inquirer columnist Robert Shaeffer wrote:
I was present at the National UFO Conference in New York City in 1980, at which Betty presented some of the UFO photos she had taken. She showed what must have been well over two hundred slides, mostly of blips, blurs, and blobs against a dark background. These were supposed to be UFOs coming in close, chasing her car, landing, etc... After her talk had exceeded about twice its allotted time, Betty was literally jeered off the stage by what had been at first a very sympathetic audience. This incident, witnessed by many of UFOlogy's leaders and top activists, removed any lingering doubts about Betty's credibility — she had none. In the oft-repeated words of one UFOlogist who accompanied Betty on a UFO vigil in 1977, she was "unable to distinguish between a landed UFO and a streetlight." In 1995, Betty Hill wrote a self-published book, A Common Sense Approach to UFOs. It is filled with obviously delusional stories, such as seeing entire squadrons of UFOs in flight and a truck levitating above the freeway.
She also once wrote in a 1966 letter "Barney and I go out frequently at night for one reason or another. Since last October, we have seen our 'friends' on the average of eight or nine times out of every ten trips." But is it possible that Betty's obsession with UFOs could have been caused by her trauma from a genuine abduction? Yes, it's possible that it could have pushed her further in that direction, but Betty had commonly spoken of UFOs even before 1961, including one story she often told of her sister's own close encounter in 1957.
So here's what we have so far: A woman who clearly had an obsession with UFOs saw a light in the sky that her husband described as an airplane. She then spent two years writing an elaborate story and no doubt telling and retelling it to her husband. Later, under hypnosis, Barney was asked about the events described in Betty's story, and surprise surprise, he retold the story she'd already told him a hundred times, with an added dash from The Outer Limits episode of twelve days before. So far, we have a tale that's hard to consider reliable.
But then there are those three items said to be physical evidence of the Hill abduction: first, the star map hand drawn by Betty by memory from one shown to her aboard the spacecraft; second, the purple dress she was wearing on that night, kept for forty years in her closet, torn and covered with mysterious dust; and third, reports in the Air Force's official Project Blue Book stating that radar confirmed the presence of a UFO on that night at two separate Air Force facilities in the area, both within hours of the Hills' claimed abduction. Let's look at those first.
The first report was from Pease Air Force Base, about 82 miles southeast of Indian Head, at 2:14am. The Hills got home in Portsmouth at 5:00 in the morning on September 20. Their story states that they came to after their medical experiments about 35 miles south of Indian Head, near the town of Ashland. From Ashland to Portsmouth is about an hour and 45 minute drive, so they came to in their car around 3:15. This chronology puts Pease AFB's UFO radar evidence squarely in the middle of the Hills' three hours of medical experiments aboard the spaceship, which they say was sitting on the ground the whole time. If the Hills' story is true, the Pease AFB report must be an unrelated event.
The second report is from North Concord Air Force Station, a small hilltop radar station (closed in 1963) that was about 40 miles north of Indian Head, at 5:22pm on September 19. This is about seven hours before the Hills observed their light in the sky. It clearly does not corroborate the Hills' sighting. The reports in Project Blue Book note each target's extremely high altitude and low speed, and conclude that each was probably a weather balloon.
Next we have Betty's purple dress, the zipper of which she found to be torn. She then hung it in the closet. Two years later, after the hypnosis, she got it out and said there was strange pink dust on it. She hung it up again, this time for forty years, when a group of crop circle investigators examined it. They concluded the dress had an "anomalous biological substance" on it. While a good stretch of the imagination might consider this to be consistent with the abduction story, it's also consistent with perfectly natural explanations, namely, 40 years of dust mites, moths, and mold. I don't find the Great Purple Dress Caper to be good evidence of anything.
So the only thing we're left with is Betty's star map. In her original written stories, she described the aliens' star map as three dimensional. Under hypnosis, she redrew it on paper, in two dimensions. It's seven or eight random dots connected by lines, and it's quite rough and by no means precise. Several years later, a schoolteacher named Marjorie Fish read a book about the Hills. She then took beads and strings and converted her living room into a three dimensional version of the galaxy based on the 1969 Gliese Star Catalog. She then spent several years viewing her galaxy from different angles, trying to find a match for Betty's map, and eventually concluded that Zeta Reticuli was the alien homeworld. Other UFOlogists have proposed innumerable different interpretations. Carl Sagan and other astronomers have said that it is not even a good match for Zeta Reticuli, and that Betty's drawing is far too random and imprecise to make any kind of useful interpretation. With its third dimension removed, Betty's map cannot contain any useful positional information. Even if she had somehow drawn a perfect 3D map that did exactly align with known star positions, it still wouldn't be evidence of anything other than that such reference material is widely available, in sources like the Gliese Star Catalog. We would not conclude that an alien abduction is the only reasonable way that Betty could have learned seven or eight star positions during those two years.
And so, there we have it. The Betty & Barney Hill abduction story has every indication of being merely an inventive tale from the mind of a lifelong UFO fanatic. Despite the best efforts of authors to bolster it with mischaracterized or exaggerated evidence, it is unsupported by any useful evidence, and is perfectly consistent with the purely natural explanation.
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© 2008 Skeptoid Media, Inc. Copyright information
References & Further Reading
Fuller, John G. The Interrupted Journey: Two Lost Hours Aboard a Flying Saucer. New York: Dell, 1966.
Klass, Philip J. UFO-Abductions: A Dangerous Game. Buffalo: Prometheus Books, 1988. 7-15.
National Archives and Records Administration. "16-30 September 1961 Sightings." Project Blue Book. Project Blue Book, 1 Sep. 2005. Web. 19 Jan. 2010. <http://www.bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?pagecode=NARA-PBB1-259&tab=1>
Pflock, Karl and Brookesmith, Peter, editors. Encounters at Indian Head: The Betty and Barney Hill UFO Abduction Revisited. San Antonio: Anomalist Books, 2007.
Sheaffer, Robert. The UFO Verdict: Examining the Evidence. Buffalo: Prometheus Books, 1986. 34-44.
Reference this article:
Dunning, Brian.
"Betty and Barney Hill: The Original UFO Abduction." Skeptoid Podcast. Skeptoid Media, Inc.,
21 Oct 2008. Web.
2 Sep 2010. <http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4124>
Discuss!
Remember, you should always read with skepticism the comments of anyone too lame to put their real name & city.
"I love UFO stories and believe that some of those who claim to have had abduction experiences are genuine, EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG"
i did read that right?
Justin Eaves, whittier
October 22, 2008 12:46am
Could be that Adam meant 'genuine' in the sense of 'not knowingly bogus.'
A Young Earth Creationist's belief in Young Earth Creationism is perfectly genuine, for instance.
Gwilym, Christchurch, NZ
October 22, 2008 3:08am
I love UFO stories, especially when the explanations are as tidy as this one. On the other hand, I find gray aliens deeply frightening. I am glad that, as a skeptic, I can be fairly sure that they aren't real. However, the light that Betty and Barney saw is real! Here's an up-close photo of the alleged alien space ship: http://www.sff.net/people/yog/UFO/light.jpg
My favorite breakdown of the story is over at Making Light: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/009378.html
It was written by a local, who knows what it's like to be on that road at night.
Rachel, Kansas
October 22, 2008 7:26pm
Ancient people had every reason to believe the Earth was flat. They were not lying, just wrong.
Some who claim UFO experiences believe they had such an experience but really experienced something else. By calling them 'genuine' I am saying that they are not telling lies about UFO's just for attention, but they may not understand what happened. This is not an unusual rhetorical device.
Note that I referred to the person as genuine, not the story. (What Gwilym said.)
Adam Jones, Dallas, TX
October 22, 2008 10:20pm
OIC, It's just another Fabrication of an author or a fanatic just like Borley Rectory and Amytville Horror.
Close encounters with the Gullible Kinds. hahaha
JeromeClemente, Manila,Philippines
October 23, 2008 12:24am
Thank you for a great breakdown of this story.
True or not, the whole ufo folklore phenomena is a source for some very fascinating stories.
Check out my tribute to ufos and aliens at abductionlamp.com. You will also find my own "hypothesis" to unify the three myths of human abduction, alien abduction and Elvis living on Mars :)
Lasse, Oslo, Norway
October 23, 2008 5:00am
I have studied this case from all sources I could find, and I think its true. No proof, but thats my opinion.
Justin H Jerret, Rome
October 23, 2008 10:29am
Justin,
Does any of the evidence mentioned in this podcast effect your opinion? If so, what causes you to think the story is true? If not, why not?
Morgan, Tracy, CA
October 23, 2008 11:22am
Damn you Brian! You just destroyed one of my favorite UFO myths, it has accompanied me for the past 20+ years, I really thought there was at least something mysterious about this incident...
Now I will be up all night drenching my 1980's UFO-lore paperbacks in my tears.
;-)
Marcus, Munich/Germany
October 23, 2008 1:09pm
Here is an arguement that I don't hear often concerning aliens.
The basis of it rests in the age of the earth, generally accepted as being 4.54 billion years old by most scientists.
It is easier to imagine if you convert years to inches. For every year we will draw a line one inch long, making a huge timeline of earth. This gives us 4,540,000,000 inches, or 71,654.04 Miles of timeline.
To put that in perspective, the earth is 24,901.55 miles at the equator, making our timeline roughly 2.87 times around the earth. ALMOST 3 TIMES!!
Now, an inch is a year, so for approximately 10,000 years of recorded human history we draw 10,000 inches, or 833.33 feet. NOT EVEN 1000 FEET.
That's not even 1 lap around the track! (generally 1/4 mile)
SO....
Lets say we made a runway for the aliens to land their ship on 72,000 miles long, what chance do they have of randomly picking our 833 feet.
In all probability if aliens had visited earth, it was a LONG LONG time ago.
My wife points out that maybe the aliens were here all along.... but if they were here before us, are they really aliens? I guess that gets into panspermia theory.
Dan, North Carolina
October 23, 2008 3:01pm
An excellent analogy Dan. To put it another way, humans have lived on earth for anywhere from 100,000 to 50,000 yrs (depends on who you source, footprints on an Italian volcano were recently dated to over 300,000 yrs, but they were probably not our actual species). Anyway, in all that time, we've had radios, tv's, satellites, etc for under 100 yrs. So anyone looking for us SETI style would have such a small window of opportunity to hear us that they might have given up long ago, if they still exist. Likewise, there may be sentient creatures out there yet who don't have the capability to try to contact us yet. Statistically speaking, the likelihood of et life in the galaxy is high. The likelihood of intelligent species as ourselves, not nearly as high. Look at the number of species on earth and how many of them have made radios and tv's, etc. Also, radio and tv signals degenerate over distance so the farther away someone is, the less likely that they will be able to make anything out of our transmissions--it would just be white noise. Add to that the ability of a species so advanced as to have an understanding of physics to make ftl or even wormhole jumping technology to even FIND us in this vast cosmic wasteland.... To sum up, yes, there probably are aliens out there. Will we ever meet them? Not bloody likely. A side note: Look how humans treat "lesser" species on earth. Why do we suppose an advanced alien culture would treat us any different?
Tony, Humbolt, CA
October 23, 2008 9:38pm
What I find unconvincing about this (and most other UFO stories) is how crude and primitive the methods of the supposedly "advanced" aliens are. To survey they Earth they don't do orbital mapping, they have to come down and poke around like 19th century naturalists ashore in the Galapagos Islands.
I'm a science fiction writer: I can imagine advanced aliens creating robot insects or birds to make a complete and thorough examination of the whole planet, which we would never even suspect.
Hmm... that pigeon outside is watching me...
Cambias, Amherst
October 27, 2008 6:20pm
I love the "fact" that aliens can (apparently) cross the universe, but when they get to their destination, they get shot down or crash and then get captured, depending on whose story you listen to.
AND .. there are so many of them orbiting earth that sightings and abductions are a near-daily occurance but... no objective evidence exists.
I would love to believe the earth has been visited by aliens, that we are part of a wider, galactic community, that the truth is out there.
However, there simply is no proof.
I also love the (apparent) fact that the same people, or the same *type* of people, who claim we have been visited by aliens also claim we haven't visited the moon.
My take on all of this? The earth has some pretty sad folks on it....
Brenton, New Zealand
October 27, 2008 6:29pm
As much as I like to believe that Aliens are out there, the evidence against them is overwhelmingly bad.
I do know that if the Aliens land, the religious people will claim that there are "other sheep in other lands" really meant the planets.
To Cambias,
Forget the pidgeons, I am more worried about this poster labeled Big Brother that appeared in my room overnight.
Joseph Furguson, Brawley, ca
October 27, 2008 7:25pm
Simply put, the odds of somebody lying about being abducted by aliens is more favorable than it actually happening.
Mike S, Chatham, ON Canada
November 01, 2008 9:42am
I am skeptical about the Betty and Barney hill story, however I don't think that this article does justice to the story. It dismisses it too quickly without examining it in enough detail. The writer, quite obviously, disbelieved the story from the outset and did not begin to examine it with a neutral mind.
A skeptic is neither a debunker nor a blind believer - a skeptic starts out with the sort of mindset which examines the facts as objectively as possible and then arrives at a conclusion.
Max Costa, Malta, Europe
November 04, 2008 10:46pm
one other thing I have never understood... Lets say thes AMAZING aliens are capable of actually looking for us SETI style, and they are capable of actual physics which allows them to bend time, or to create and sustain wormholes, and in fact they decide that our human society is sufficiently noteworthy to actually make the unfathomable journey across the universe to see us.
Why anal probing?
They have mastered the ancient cosmos and journeyed billions of miles amidst counless solar systems, reaching far across the spans of the universe reserved for god himself... and yet the human colon remains a mystery??!
laughable.
Dan, North Carolina
November 05, 2008 4:05pm
I have to believe in Betty and Barney Hills abduction. There is really not any true evidence to cover it up, but why would they make up all of that stuff? To get attention you say... maybe, but I am telling you there is more trouble to go through by coming forward and making up a abduction story, then there is getting any one to trust that you were abducted. So that is saying they had no reason to make this up at all. All I have to say about them negatively in their abduction case is what they seen is totaally wrong. Betty waas having dreams about this after it happened. Her dreams can be so different that her story and dream couldn't even be related in any way. Betty and Barney seemed that they did make up some of this so they didn't look like they were totally left in the dark. So overall I believe they were abducted by aliens from another place out there, but they couldn't remember a single true event that happened to them when they were abducted. I believe that the star map was the only true piece of evidence of the abduction overall, and that is only because that part seems more real to me. I also believe that the aliens did not talk to them whatsoever. They are not alowed to, because aliens cannot speak english. That tells you right there that Betty was making up a little of her story, and that really judges the credibility of her and Barney's abduction. How I know that aliens don't speak english is because of travis waltons abduction case. That is a good one.
Dillon Baugh, Honey Grove, Texas
November 09, 2008 9:24am
I was surprised to read that you describe yourself as a skeptic when in reality you embrace all of the qualities of a denier. Perhaps it is because you haven’t done your research, but instead relied upon the misinformation posted on denier sites. Or could it be that your mind was already made up about the Hill UFO encounter? What is clear is the fact that your blog is laden with false and misleading information. In fact, although you use the names Betty and Barney Hill, nearly your entire rant is fictitious.
A skeptic would have referred to NICAP investigator Walter Webb’s original sighting report dated 10.26.61. If you had, you would have learned that the Hills reported a large, silent, unconventional flying object near Indian Head hovering only 80-100 feet above their vehicle, not a light in the sky. If you’d done your research, you’d also have learned that Betty reported Barney’s observation of figures aboard the craft to NICAP headquarters on 9/26/61, several days before her series of five dreams. And for your information, she arranged her notes on these terrifying dreams into sequential order and typed them one time in November 1961. I have the original. Air Force Major Paul Henderson had never met the Hills but Barney reported his UFO sighting to Blue Book on 9.21.61.
A skeptic doesn’t disseminate misinformation gleaned from deniers. A skeptic investigates. A skeptic doesn’t’ project fantasies that might have happened. A skeptic examines the facts and the evidence. You did neither.
Kathleen Marden, Stratham, NH
November 10, 2008 6:00am
Katheleen Wrote: "Air Force Major Paul Henderson had never met the Hills but Barney reported his UFO sighting to Blue Book on 9.21.61."
He does reference this in the first line of the podcast: "It was shortly before midnight on September 19, 1961 when Betty and Barney Hill had the experience which was to shape all of modern alien folklore." But did you over look this part in face of your blanket anger?
You also wrote this: "A skeptic would have referred to NICAP investigator Walter Webb’s original sighting report dated 10.26.61."
But even thoiugh he does nor reference it by name, Brian talks about this in this line "[They called] Major Paul Henderson at nearby Pease Air Force Base, to report a UFO sighting. Major Henderson found that this was corroborated by two separate UFO reports from radar data from two different Air Force installations nearby."
The last few lines are really funny: "A skeptic doesn’t disseminate misinformation gleaned from deniers. A skeptic investigates. A skeptic doesn’t’ project fantasies that might have happened. A skeptic examines the facts and the evidence. You did neither."
The funny thing is he did do skepticism. He did the research, analyzed it, and came up with a conclusion. This is Occam's Razor. Find other explanations for the events, and if they seem more plausible, then the assertion that UFO's are the only explanation is no longer valid. You, OTH, are jus parroting the things you believe. Shame on you.
Joseph Furguson, Brawley, Ca
November 10, 2008 9:19am
I KNOW Aliens are here. Saw a ship in 2002 at Dugway Proving Grounds in Utah. They watch places like that, weapons, military bases all the time.
Perhaps to prevent us from nuking each other off.
Ron, Tacoma
December 06, 2008 10:23am
No, you saw something and you believe that it was an alien spacecraft. This is very different from it actually being an alien spacecraft.
I'm not sure people really appreciate how big space is and what level of technology would be required to travel from star to star. The first thing people should consider is that distance in space is measured in light years. When it comes to measuring the distance between the Earth and stars with planets orbiting there is usually a really big number in front of the word light years. The upshot off all this is that to visit Earth from another planet you either have to have a civilization that lives in a spaceship and drops by a planet every few thousand years or find away around the speed of light.
If you could do either of those things, would you need to actually fly over a base to see what's on it? Go to Google Earth. Humans don't need to get close to it to see what's going on there.
The sad thing is that space doesn't need any pseudo science to make it interesting. You're missing out on some really cool stuff by getting wrapped in alien conspiracies.
Craig, Washington DC
December 09, 2008 12:54pm
As I was listening to this podcast, I happened to recall Betty Hill appearing on a TV show called "Lie Detector" hosted by F. Lee Bailey back in the early '80s. Ms. Hill submitted to, and passed, a polygraph test relating to her recall of the abduction. Interesting, eh?
Now, I find the idea of an actual alien abduction to be extremely unlikely. What I find more likely, and maybe even more interesting, is that either (1) Ms. Hill really believed her story was true, or (2) Ms. Hill had learned to "game" the polygraph to appear truthful.
Now, polygraphs are not consistently reliable (which is the reason why they are not admissible as evidence in court)- and Ms. Hill may have just been a practiced enough liar to fool the polygrapher. However, I think it is likely that Ms. Hill really believed her story to be true. She had certainly been obsessive enough about it, and this would have been some 20 years after the event, and Ms. Hill had doubtless told this story hundreds of times over the years.
Our brains do play some interesting tricks on us sometimes.
Don Richardson, Lufkin, Texas
December 14, 2008 1:27pm
Even the former leader of your United States of America, James Earl Carter Jr., thought he saw a UFO once... But it's been proven he only saw the planet Venus. Venus was at its peak brilliance last night. You probably thought you saw something up in the sky other than Venus, but I assure you, it was Venus. Your scientists have yet to discover how neural networks create self-consciousness, let alone how the human brain processes two-dimensional retinal images into the three-dimensional phenomenon known as perception. Yet you somehow brazenly declare seeing is believing? Your scientific illiteracy makes me shudder, and I wouldn't flaunt your ignorance by telling anyone that you saw anything last night other than the planet Venus. Some alien encounters are hoaxes perpetrated by your government to manipulate the public. Some of these hoaxes are intentionally revealed to manipulate the truth-seekers who become discredited if they disclose the deliberately absurd deception. You're feeling very sleepy, very... relaxed.
Jose Chung, Area 51
December 19, 2008 5:23pm
Betty Hills map included a star that was not found until the late 1990's when a new telescope was put into use. One with a new type of lens that was meant to be rounded and based on the theory of relativity E=mc2.
She also described a few proceedures that was not put into use at that time, but is common today.
Some things that I have not seen in current reports, but remember from when I first read of this case back in the early 70's is the markings on the car, and its unbelieveable gas mileage thereafter, for about 6 mos. and also how the beings told her of why she was not able to have children and never would. They also foretold Barney of some health issues he had concerning his heart.
I feel this is a very hard case to debunk. Too much evidence comes to light with the passing years. I have been watching this case for thirty years, and each year I recognize more and more proof as being the missing peices of the puzzle.
Kim, Jensen Beach Florida
January 18, 2009 8:45am
"Betty Hills map included a star that was not found until the late 1990's when a new telescope was put into use. "
Kim, Jensen Beach Florida
Really? Which flyspeck on the drawing at the link below would that be? Look at the original drawing (not the Fish Translation below it) and tell us which vague dot is the undiscovered star.
http://www.etcontact.org/hillstarmap.html
Lewayne, Near Des Moines
February 18, 2009 7:33pm
The government knows more than we know.. They make us look stupid like we are lying.. They turn things around so they look good covering their butts and keeping it a secret.
Jenn, concord nh
April 11, 2009 8:08am
Looking at the history of the US Government on keeping secrets, what could possibly give you the idea that the government is capable of keeping a secret like this? Do the pentagon papers, Watergate, arms for hostages scandals ring any bells?
Craig, Washington DC
April 11, 2009 1:00pm
There is an obvious failure here to do the due diligence on this case. I see a lot of laziness. "Innumerable books and movies" means from 0 to a bazillion? Basic research in the age of the Google.
Asserting an aged widow is nuts based on second hand accounts? Then asserting she was always nuts based on speculation? That only flies on the Fox Network.
These people obviously experienced something traumatic enough for them to risk ridicule by reporting it to authorities and following up with a mental health professional. Whether or not this was a flying saucer it is unfair and unkind to smear them posthumously. I think a rational position is to accept that people believe these things but also accept there is no empirical basis for judging either way.
I also believe, as Vallee pointed out decades ago and Jung before him, that the abduction motif appears worldwide in numerous cultural contexts and versions with aliens replaced by fairies, saucers with flying chariots, and other simple detail shifts depending upon the host culture. It is an Ur-narrative; not Stargate SG-1 or Von Daniken, but a common story theme going back centuries.
So do some honest research and try to be fair. Coming off with the agenda and attitude doesn't sell the philosophy of science, it just provides confirmation bias for the kooky and turns off the curious next generation of potential scientists. It tells kids interested in science that some things are taboo.
Spiff Spacely, Sprocket City, Space
April 12, 2009 3:05pm
Have you heard the original tapes recorded during Betty and Barneys hypnosis session?------chilling!!
Something very very unusual and very real happened to them.
Marky Mark, Irvine, CA
May 06, 2009 8:42am
HEY! Whatdya know - I'm not "Lame" - I gave you my real name and location - ok "Captain Smarmy"?!
#1, Betty Hill has passed polygraph examination...
#2, She described amniocentesis
being performed upon her decades before it was even INVENTED!!!
#3, concerning the Fish map - I think several physicists, astronomers, and a woman (M.Fish) who worked at Oakridge national lab, belonged to MENSA, and has an IQ of 196 - basically - is more qaulified to support and comment on it being genuine, than
an obtuse doubting Thomas like you
is - in referring to it as "vague obscure dots". DUUUHHHH...
Let's see YOUR freaking PHD in astrophysics pal!
P.S. - Carl Sagan was about as exciting to watch as bread slowly molding.I'm surprised he ever had a girlfriend (will wonders never cease)- oh, that's right, guys like you don't believe in wonders.
The only reason that you even believe in air is because your forced to breath it.
Let me guess - your favorite color is "clear"...
Bill Roach, Middletown Oh.
June 05, 2009 5:55am
#1 Polygraph-
And? At best, it indicates that she believed her own story. There's a reason why they aren't admissable evidence in court.
#2 Amnio-
a)Pulp writers of the early 20th century described rocket travel and lasers. It doesn't mean they saw them.
b)Amnios were first done in the 50's, so even if she described one, it's not "decades before" they were "INVENTED!!!"
c)Amnios are a specific procedure performed 14-16 weeks into a pregnancy. Was she pregnant? If not, then what would be the point? No amniotic fluid to play with.
#3 Experts
a)Name them.
b)Prove that your appeal to authority beats an opponent's appeal to authority.
c)One doesn't need a PhD of any sort to see that Betty's original 2D "map" is as useful for stellar cartography as my 8 years drawing of a house is for construction.
d)Even if her map coincidentally matches a star configuration, it says nothing about the events of that night. It may mean nothing more than that Betty had access to a star catalog.
e)My original point was that:
1)The poster needs to indicate which of those vague dots is the star no one discovered until "the late 90's".
2)How Betty's map could "match" anything in a 1969 catalog if it contained a star unidentified until "the late 90's".
Insulting Sagan's showmanship does little to move your argument beyond schoolyard taunts.
My favorite color varies between green and blue, depending on the day.
Thanks for playing.
Lewayne, Near Des Moines
July 23, 2009 4:23pm
Apologies.
"...8 years drawing..." should have been "8 year old's drawing..."
Lewayne, Near Des Moines
July 25, 2009 5:12am
Well. well, well - looks like you got me on a few points there chum - but I ain't givin'up just yet!
First (#1), yes - you are right about polygraphs. Even though a lot of sources give their accuracy as being 85 - 90%, those sources refute the fact that the scientific community has - yes - determined that polygraphs are to biased and technically dubious to be deemed reliable. HOWEVER - the second court of appeals in a case involving a sex offender upheld it's use in that case. I could not however track down that specific case for references - hence - it's pointless to mention. However both of us have agreed that Mrs. Hill BELIEVES what she claims she has experienced. However - since she had a generally good report from all who knew her considering her integrity - we can thus acertain that she was not "lieing". She may have been nuts - sure - but she wasn't lieing.
#2, About "AMNIOCENTISIS". YOU SAID:
" b)Amnios were first done in the 50's, so even if she described one, it's not "decades before" they were "INVENTED!!!"
Well pal - ya got me there - kudos - you were right (in a way).
Amnio "like" procedures - but NOT true amniocentesis was being done in the 50s, and yes - similiar (but NOT the same) procedures were being done on an extremely RARE and EXOTIC basis as far back as the late 1800s. HOWEVER - I found this info on http://ob-ultrasound.net/amniocentisis:
Amnio was not done on a common basis since 1961 (continued next entry)..
Bill Roach, Middletown Ohio
September 17, 2009 11:43pm
"The first use of amniotic fluid examination in the diagnosis of genetic disease was reported by Fuchs and Riis in 1956 in their seminal article in "Nature". They determined fetal sex from cells found in amniotic fluid, basing on the presence or absence of the Barr body. John Edward in England, also discussed for the first time in 1956 the possibility of the "antenatal detection of hereditary disorders". The determination of fetal sex led to the prenatal management of patients with Haemophilia A in 1960, and Duchenne muscular dystrophy in 1964."
http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/amniocentesis.html
Look's like the mid-50's to me (Fuchs & Riss, 1956) and published in "Nature" which is available to the public. So, while not routinely done, they were done at least as far back as '56 and written about in a magazine available to the public, rather than limited to occupational/medical journals.
Either way, not impossible for B. to know about, nor was it prior to their invention.
Lewayne, near Des Moines
September 21, 2009 1:52pm
"However both of us have agreed that Mrs. Hill BELIEVES what she claims she has experienced. However - since she had a generally good report from all who knew her considering her integrity - we can thus acertain that she was not "lieing". She may have been nuts - sure - but she wasn't lieing."
I'm willing to accept that she BELIEVED what she said, but that's a long way from agreeing that it's factually true.
As illustrations:
Michael Shermer, during a cross-country bicycle race, believed he was being abducted by aliens. He was actually being cajoled into his support vehicle due to exhaustion. (Why People Believe Weird Things)
Mr. Dunning relates the story of his mother's nocturnal assault (Skeptoid #8). She seems to have suffered normal sleep paralysis, but remains convinced otherwise.
Millions of children BELIEVE that Santa visits, and could even show you evidence.
None of the above are "lying," but there is no factual basis of, or support for, their belief.
Lewayne, near Des Moines
September 22, 2009 9:26am
i believe those who label experiencers as nut jobs are afraid to accept the evidence that is out there. We are not god, we are human, and we didn't just magically appear on planet earth. I've had my fair share of experiences and what sucks is trying to express what you witness to people who never look up with their own two eyes to see what could be going on. I frown upon any brother and sister who dare judge the testimony of an experiencer.. it takes great courage to speak out against what's culturally accepted.
fayble, napa california
December 04, 2009 7:31am
"i believe those who label experiencers as nut jobs are afraid to accept the evidence that is out there."
While I frown on calling an "experiencer" a "nut job" the reason skeptics don't "accept the evidence that is out there" is because of the LACK of evidence.
"Testimony" from an experiencer doesn't go anywhere without some sort of testable evidence to back it up. Anyone can claim to have seen something, or done something, but without supporting proof, it remains anecdote. A boatload of people "saw" UFOs over Phoenix, except that when you test evidence like video footage, it turns out that the event can be explained by and A-10 flight dropping flares.
I listened to Belzer's conspiracy book, "UFOs, JFK, and Elvis" recently. He mentions several "abductions" that could have provided evidence like injection marks, missing ova, residual fluids, scarring from surgery or "probing" etc. Guess what? No alleged "experiencer" apparently thought to have a medical professional examine them for any event that allegedly occured to them.
"I frown upon any brother and sister who dare judge the testimony of an experiencer.."
So, if someone claims they were abducted by an alien, I'm prohibited from asking questions about it, or evaluating their "evidence?" That smells like special pleading...
Lewayne, Near Des Moines
December 06, 2009 7:55pm
it could be true and it makes for a good read.idk but i think it happenned and the diagram they drew is cool but is it evidence.i know the ship followed them and abducted them.i was nearby when it happenned.well ok maybe i wasnt but you see how i can fib.but i for some reason at least beieve something extremely weird occurred that night.does the fact theyre a mixed couple of race matter?how come it was them id ask myself and maybe because they were different.it seems logicaql but theres many other couples of a b/w ethnic.im not sure if race matters here but im saying it could be is all im saying.i did like the film however and its interesting.more talk needs to be brought up on this thread and thanks for having it!
edward bliss, worcester,mass
December 23, 2009 1:44pm
Even IF the Betty Hill story didn't actually feature extraterrestrials, how do we know that, in fact, another strange thing didn't happen, not necessarily paranormal, but an event like a rare atmospherical condition that may have led the Hill's to believe that they had encountered aliens? (I think I once read a website that featured such a theory about the Travis Walton case.)
TF, Niagara Falls, Canada
December 23, 2009 2:09pm
"Even IF the Betty Hill story didn't actually feature extraterrestrials, how do we know that, in fact, another strange thing didn't happen, not necessarily paranormal, but an event like a rare atmospherical condition that may have led the Hill's to believe that they had encountered aliens? "
What kind of atmospeheric phenomenon would a person mistake for alien abduction, elaborate medical experimentation, and traveling return hours later, along with constant sightings throughout the remainder of life? LSD shower?
They may have seen something in the sky that seemed unusual, but everything after that has all the earmarks of fabricationm.
Lewayne, Near Des Moines
December 27, 2009 11:01am
How come these supposed aliens never land in a large crowd of people, park their ship and just come out?
Steve, Kingston
January 14, 2010 6:19pm
I really wonder if the Betty and Barney Hill UFO story is a result of a repressed traumatic memory of being kidnapped and terrorized by white racists. Such a terrorizing experience can be repressed from memory, and explain the feelings that something happened that night and explain the torn clothing and skuffed shoes and constant worry about something that happened that night. Their investigation could be contaminated by the UFO/ET subculture because repressed memories are subject to suggestibility from such information. The hypnosis adds to the suggestibility and contamination of the memories.
Does anyone know if the 'real memories' came out years later? Usually repressed traumatic memories come out about 20 to 30 years after the traumatic event, events such as being gang rape, kidnapping by a terrorist or childhood sexual abuse by a parent.
Who Cares, Chico, California
January 24, 2010 12:21am
I actually looked up and read the entire story on Wikipedia (cheap shot, inaccuracy jokes, etcetera, moving on) after reading up on the Travis Walton thing on Wikipedia following your article on it.
It thoroughly fascinated me, and though I do believe Betty made it up, I take great delight and pleasure in hearing the tales. I am like what some famous person, I think Aristotle, said that I can entertain an idea for a long while without ever accepting it.
However, I feel that your article's neglect of Barney really hurts his character in some way.
It's noted that Barney did not believe they were abducted by aliens, and did not lend any credence to Betty's story. Even after accepting what he'd said under hypnosis, he was supposedly very skeptical of the whole thing for the rest of his life.
Another odd factor to throw in is that Barney was black, and they were an interracial couple. Psychiatrists reportedly later suggested that the supposed abduction was a hallucination brought on by the stress of being an interracial couple in early 60s America.
Not very scientific in itself, but somehow this would be more believable than an abduction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_and_Barney_Hill_abduction
'Betty's dream concluded with her asking, "Now do you believe in flying saucers?" Irritated, Barney said, "Don't be ridiculous."'
Andariel Halo, Miami, Florida
January 25, 2010 10:02am
Betty's "recovered memories" sound very much like a vivid nightmare compounded by sleep paralysis - especially considering that she was already obsessed with aliens, and no doubt dreaming about them, before the alleged abduction. I've had sleep paralysis experiences that closely resemble the classic abduction narrative. It's terrifying even for a skeptic, so I can't imagine how scary it must be for someone who thinks little grey men are real.
Elizabeth, Austin, TX
April 24, 2010 10:11pm
it is kind of sad that the people who think they know something and do not really know much dont just keep quiet...i have seen quite a few commentaries by this skeptoid guy on ufo issues or events, that isnt because the guy who runs this website knows much- he does not-- there are numerous reviews of ufo related events because there are many ufos coming to this planet. BTW, in the betty and barney hill info dunning has provided here, some is interesting or informative but sadly the man who had the most contact with aliens and had the most severe reactions during hypnotic experience regression sessions, barney hill, his comments under hypnosis and his tone of voice is missing from this narrative...which is kind of sad. The person who had the most to explain and the person who had the most contact with the ufo is lost from the dunning treatment...sad.
I ask many to review the actual voice recordings of the man who was terrified of his encounter with space aliens. Available in various ways...no one really has a right to comment on something unless they have facts. Otherwise its idiocy droolfroknuckledraggers.
okay ?I have been a ufo researcher since 1991 and i am a veteran of the USAF.This was important event in USA, before all the media hype on a ufo.The way this was explained here reminds me of lil girl who shows mom a dead insect and her family tells her what it is and not to worry. it cant hurt you they say, lil girl smiles and outside millions of locusts arrive in clouds
Derr UFO, Maryland USA
May 15, 2010 4:10pm
If you want to lrean more about aleins (grays) then wacth the show called ufo files. It's relly useful. It gives you imformation about aleins a.k.a the grays.
Ethan C., grapevine,tx
June 09, 2010 2:02pm
Okay. I'm game. I even believe that intelligent civilizations exist ouside of our solar system (I'm of the opinion that life exists elsewhere in the solar system, but that's merely a pet working hypothesis at present).
Please present some pysical evidence that aliens have visited, or are currently visiting, our planet. Should be simple, if they're doing so constantly.
Please note that I will ignore eye witness accounts. I do that as a matter of principle. I've had to learn a great deal about human perception, and one thing I've learned is that even the most relyable witnesses get details wrong. And I'm fair about this--I'd reject Dr. Dawkins or Dr. Plaite as casually as I'd reject Mr. Smith or Mr. Jones if all they presented was eye-witness testimoney.
Gregory, Alabama
July 12, 2010 5:42pm
Frist of all dust mites do not make pink powder! 2nd the damaged areas are specific to forced hand positions!
3rd 3d has nothing.g to do withseeing the star positions which she had NO KNOWLEDGE OF!
4 th the fact that it took 2 yrs to go under hyipnosi makes the story even more convincing that it was not planed!
The trouble people will go to so they can live in denial! Lol
wesley, powder springs Ga
July 22, 2010 6:03am
Dust mites and other natural processes do indeed produce a pink powder from a PURPLE dress, as my grandmother's closet confirms.
Brandon, Falconer
July 30, 2010 6:04pm
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I love UFO stories and believe that some of those who claim to have had abduction experiences are genuine, even if they are wrong. However, the Betty and Barney Hill case has never had the 'ring of truth' in my ears and I am glad it is being discussed by you in this way.
If there is a real UFO phenomenon going on it is a very important issue and it will be easier to understand it after we move aside these unfounded stories and try to find actual facts.
Adam Jones, Dallas, TX
October 21, 2008 8:21am